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[Tyranid Special Rules] Regeneration

 Post subject: [Tyranid Special Rules] Regeneration
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 3:59 pm 
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The second of the two special rules under Xeno-Biology. I'm not a fan of the more DC abstraction to represent this ability. Given that and that every other race has a special rule for their titan-class models I'd like to reintroduce this back into the list for the two biggest bio-titans and the Dominatrix.

The main complaint with the old rule was that the model could be restored to its full starting DC in the end phase of every turn. To get around that I'm thinking of something like the following:

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Regeneration: War engine units with regeneration can regain lost damage capacity points. Each unit with regeneration regains one damage capacity point in the end phase of each turn. In addition, if the unit regroups it can use the dice roll to remove Blast makers as normal or to regain damage capacity points at a three-for-one rate. For example, if you rolled a 6 you could: regain two damage capacity points; regain one damage capacity point and remove three Blast markers; or remove six Blast markers.

Regeneration cannot be used by a destroyed unit nor may it increase a unit's damage capacity beyond the starting amount.


My intent is to mimic the Void Shield/Necron mechanics here. However, given that the armor saves of the bio-titan are looking to be 4+RA I don't think grant a full 1d6 of DC for every regroup is a good idea. On average its twice as hard to take away a 4+RA DC then to remove a 4+ necron unit. Due to that, I elected for the 3:1 rate so the things aren't healing themselves fully via regroups.

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 Post subject: Re: [Tyranid Special Rules] Regeneration
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 4:02 pm 
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Too complicated a rule IMO.

I'd suggesting going either with something very simple (Ie: 1 DC regained automatically in each end phase), or just remove it and leave it out.

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 Post subject: Re: [Tyranid Special Rules] Regeneration
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 4:05 pm 
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Stick to just 1 DC regained in each end phase, or something linked to spending spawning points to heal War Engines.

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 Post subject: Re: [Tyranid Special Rules] Regeneration
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 4:09 pm 
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I would note that since you're reducing the DC of pretty much every single War Engine, this rule's unlikely to have much effect in games, as it's going to be a fair bit easier to kill Tyranid WE's in one activation in future.

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 Post subject: Re: [Tyranid Special Rules] Regeneration
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 4:21 pm 
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E&C has a point. I already have very little trouble killing Nid titans with one or two activations you would probably be better off making it function more like the Tau deflector shield i.e. an invun. save.

I like the rule and don't think it should have been dropped but I don't see it occurring all that often.


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 Post subject: Re: [Tyranid Special Rules] Regeneration
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 4:38 pm 
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Is this a rule that actually affects the gameplay or just slotted in to make nids different? Either way I think the +1 DC every End Phase is elegant, easy to remember and makes them slightly different to other WEs.

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 Post subject: Re: [Tyranid Special Rules] Regeneration
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 4:53 pm 
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Quote:
Is this a rule that actually affects the gameplay or just slotted in to make nids different?

If the reduction in DC to all the big war engines that Dave wants goes through (and I don't see anything stopping it), then it's unlikely to do much at all, really.

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 Post subject: Re: [Tyranid Special Rules] Regeneration
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:00 pm 
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If you remove 1 DC from all nid WEs above 2 DC (obviously) then regenerate can create some interesting dynamics. Overall nids become easier to take out in a single round of shooting although for assaults it should probably be the same as WE nids are mostly (or all) fearless anyway so no hackdowns. What I hope this doesn't do is promote negative tactics from the nid player. For example, a DC3 Harridan being shot down to DC1 in the 1st turn and then hiding during the 2nd turn so it can go back and claim something on turn 3 since it will be back at DC2 by then. Or a Dominatrix taking a pounding and then hiding for turns 2 and 3 so it won't die as it's likely to be BTS and also to keep the supreme commander going. As a nid player, my gut feeling is that I'd rather have more DC to start with even if regeneration is potentially +3 DC overall (the 3rd one usually being wasted due to no 4th turn).

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 Post subject: Re: [Tyranid Special Rules] Regeneration
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 6:55 pm 
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those are all tactical choices though Carlos, much the same as choosing to spend an activation regrouping a Necron unit. They all take an activation out of play for a potential future benefit.

If regeneration is used, just a simple +1DC in the end phase would be the best approach. Simple, unlikely to cause an opponent too much grief, relatively easy to playtest.


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 Post subject: Re: [Tyranid Special Rules] Regeneration
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 7:26 pm 
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At this level, isn't regeneration just the flip side of spawning?
If you are going to make it easier to kill off WE Nids, why not allow them to re-spawn from the rear of the battlefield?

And to the question on 'Independants' which do not have swarms to spawn back against, an answer that springs from my earlier suggestion is that *all* spawning points are put into a pot, and if the player wants to regenerate a big Hierophant (or even a few small independants), he will have less to add to the more regular swarms which may die as a consequence.


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 Post subject: Re: [Tyranid Special Rules] Regeneration
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 8:11 pm 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
I would note that since you're reducing the DC of pretty much every single War Engine, this rule's unlikely to have much effect in games, as it's going to be a fair bit easier to kill Tyranid WE's in one activation in future.


Overall I can't see it having a great effect in game although it may come into play if the Bio-Titans drop in cost commensurate with their drop in resilience so you see a lot more of them.

Why not have Tyranid Bio-Titans restoring DC using the Void Shield mechanic with a 2-1 or 3-1 ratio instead of 1-1, imperial players seem to manage ok with the complexity.


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 Post subject: Re: [Tyranid Special Rules] Regeneration
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 9:41 pm 
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Quote:
Why not have Tyranid Bio-Titans restoring DC using the Void Shield mechanic with a 2-1 or 3-1 ratio instead of 1-1, imperial players seem to manage ok with the complexity.

Because the Tyranid list really doesn't need more complications to it, it's already the slowest list to play.

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 Post subject: Re: [Tyranid Special Rules] Regeneration
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 10:54 pm 
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Because there are more than enough long-winded, complicated special rules in the 'nid list. Any new rules need to be incredibly simple.

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 Post subject: Re: [Tyranid Special Rules] Regeneration
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 11:24 pm 
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1 DC in the end phase sounds pretty good to me.

Alternatively something that works like spawning, but I'd need to see the spawning rules before I could have an opinion on that.


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 Post subject: Re: [Tyranid Special Rules] Regeneration
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 11:25 pm 
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i think that the 3:1 ratio suggestion will mean it is never going to be used.
in my experience, titans tend to go from "alive" to "severely damaged" in a very rapid sequence of actions. their high armour and DC count means they dont get attacked piecemeal very often (atleast, not until they're bleeding and you're trying to polish them off) if they've got less DC and/or no void shields, then this will make it be "alive" to "dead" instead. there wont be much/any time to take regeneration into account.
so making regeneration be "you get a DC back if you give up your action, and if you somehow survive to the end of the turn, you get another one" is pretty much a waste of rulespace. all it will do is (briefly) give the nid player a false sense of hope that their unit will survive. how hard is it to kill 2 leman russ?
and even if i somehow dont manage to do 4 DC damage to them in one turn, all i really need to worry about is doing 1 or maybe 2 DC next turn, so i wont be likely to bother burning extra activations trying to finish them off.

also, i'd like to point out that having a lower DC means they're easier to break (bad) and without shields of any kind, deathstrikes (or even firestrikes) will #####slap them for very cheap points. shadowswords will obliterate them! unless you're going to make them cheap, they'll die too easily to be worth taking. and if you do, that makes an entirely new set of problems

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