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[Xeno-Biostatistics] Synapse - HTs, Ts, Ms and TWs

 Post subject: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Synapse - HTs, Ts, Ms and TWs
PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 5:28 pm 
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Alright, it's synapse time. All these units with have Synapse which will allow them to bring destroyed brood units back into play. Also, I think all Synapse units should have Fearless.

Hive Tyrant

I'm planning on sticking to what we have for the Canifex for this guy.

Given the discussion on the fex's move 15 or 20cm is still on the table, discuss.

They're pretty much on par with Carnifex in all editions of 40k and SM/TL so again 4+RA works well here I think.

The same goes for their CC value in comparison to the fex, so again CC3+ with a EA MW.

For shooting, of the 4 models for them 3 are armed with a Venom Cannon I believe, so I think we should probably go with that over the barbed strangler. Beyond that I don't think the strangler would see much used it comparison to the venom cannons stats, however we could do something similar to the Razorback/Stompa here with a 0-1x OR option.

Venom Cannon: 36" 1@s9 => 30cm AP4+/AT5+
Barbed Strangler: 36" 1@s4 blast, pinning => 30cm AP5+ Disrupt

For FF I think 5+ is good enough no matter what weapon we give it.

For special rules beyond Synapse and Fearless I think Command and Leader fit here given their fluff and high Ld in 40k.

Winged Hive Tyrant

If we're comparing him to the Demon Prince a reduction in armor would be called for here, however they still have the same T and Sv in 40k when given wings so I'm in favor of keeping 4+RA. As for CC/FF/Weapons, what are people in favor off given there's no model? The special rules would be that of the regular Tyrant.

Tervigon

This guy has the same T, Sv and number of wound sin 40k as the Trygon/Mawloc so I think 2DC with 5+RA fits here as well.

A CC that's on par with the Mawloc or slightly worse would be called for as well. Zombo has them at CC5+ and I think that's fair.

For shooting, they're armed with a Stinger Salvo, effectively a 18" heavy bolter with 4 shots instead of 3 in 40k. 18" is really on the line for a shooting attack however. If anything I'd save 15cm AP5+. Zombo didn't give it an attack in the Leviathan stats though. Thoughts?

Given it's 2DC I think FF6+ would be good enough but Zombo has them at FF5+. Thoughts here?

Beyond Fearless and Synapse something that represents its spawning ability should be applied. Something that effectively bumps its spawn points would work (Zombo called it Brood Mother). Also given its high Ld and Dominion power I think Leader works here too.

Malanthrope

Given that they're fleet a move of 20cm makes sense here. And with them always floating Skimmer makes sense. Zombo has them with Jump Packs however. Thoughts?

Their stats are comparable to a Hive Tyrant/Carnifex so 4+RA works. However, they do have the Warp Field which I think should count for an Invulnerable Save.

Their number of attacks, S and WS is on par with the fex and tyrant so their CC of 3+ with a EA MW should work. Zombo has them with sniper instead of MW though. Thoughts here?

They don't have a shooting attack but the Leviathan stats abstract out the effects of Rippers and give them a FF5+ with an extra attack as well as an extra attack in CC. What do people think about that? It's fairly abstract but is it a good representation of rippers?

Tyranid Warriors

These are the other unit beyond Zoanthropes that will have separate old/new stats.

Given the move discussions they will both be 15cm or 20cm.

For armor, the 3 40k2e Warriors were slightly tougher then 5 Orks, so a save of 5+ fits. The newer warriors will have a save of 4+ to reflect their better save in 40k5e.

For CC, both old/new have 9 attacks with 40k2e stats they're WS6, S5, and with 5e they're WS5, S4. That puts them at slightly better than 5 Assault Marines (10 attacks, WS4, S4) in both editions so I think a CC of 2+ could work for both. Zombo has his at 2CC4+ I believe. Thoughts?

For shooting, I'd like the old warriors to be armed WYSIWYG for the SM/TL plastic models, namely two deathspitters. Deathspitters used to be 32" in 2e but have been reduced to 18" in all prior editions. Given their 2e stats I'd put them at 30cm AP4+. With the 5e stats it be more of a 15cm AP5+. What do people think?

Zombo has them armed with a Venom Cannon in Leviathan (36" S6 blast) which translates into 30cm AP5+ pretty well. They have AT6+ in Leviathan however, which I don't think is warranted with 40k5e stats, 2-4e it would though. Thoughts?

For FF, I think FF5+ works for both old and new no matter what they're armed with.

Shrikes

Basically 5e Warriors with Jumpacks and a worse save. I think a 30cm move with Jump Packs and an armor of 5+ would work here, although Arkturas as them at a move of 25cm. Thoughts?

For armament I'd like to here people's thoughts again as they have no models currently. By default they're each armed with talons and a devourer in 5e. Which would make for a CC2+, FF4+ in my opinion with no shooting attack.

Tyranid Primes

What are people looking for here? A character upgrade that grants an extra attack, leader and commander? A separate unit? Let's hear your thoughts.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Synapse - HTs, Ts, Ms and TWs
PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 5:56 pm 
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Hive Tyrant

All fine, but I don't think the barbed strangler version is needed. Can we call the weapon a Large Venom Cannon? That's what they now have in 40k5e and so it doesn't conflict with the smaller venom cannon on the warriors.

Winged Hive Tyrant

Whatever is decided, it should be a seperate profile rather than the 9.2.1 split profile thing, so different lists can choose whether to use it.

Tervigon

2DC 5+RE is fine.

I didn't give a ranged shot to the stingers and increased the FF to 5+ to represent it as it's really a purely defensive weapon.

Brood Mother should be a standard list rule to increase Spawning, and it can be applied to both this and the Dominatrix, and possibly other units (Hive nest or similar).

Malanthrope

Jump Packs/Skimmer doesn't matter much, I was just matching the floatiness of zoanthropes.

MW instead of Sniper is fine, just trying to represent their poison with Sniper.

The Malanthrope background has them arriving in the late phases of invasion, always surrounded by hordes of rippers, so I thought it was a nice touch to have them here as a FF/CC attack. Note this is the same way Scarabs are represented with the Tomb Spyder in the necron list, so there's precident.

Tyranid Warriors

I think with a little concession we can combine the stats and not have to split them.

I'll accept the 5+ armour, and whatever you want on the CC stats, if we can come to an agreement on the weapon.

If we had a weapon with 30cm AP5+, it could happily represent either the (small) Venom Cannon or the Deathspitters, and then it'd only be a name change on the profile between the two lists, which I think is acceptable.

I hope we're both still agreed on infantry status?

Shrikes

30cm, lower save, no ranged shot sounds fine to me.

Tyranid Primes

Not neccesary to represent IMHO, they're basically a sgt equivilent for warriors, and can be safely absorbed into the warrior stats.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Synapse - HTs, Ts, Ms and TWs
PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 7:42 pm 
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Winged Tyrant: Since Winged Tyrants demand two arms to be replaced by wings, it should be either extra CC MW attack or standard weapon for Tyranids. I am leaning towards pure CC. After all, it has the move for it, and if 4+ RA, the save as well.

Tyranid Warriors: I can see armour going down to 5+ as well. It would also make it comparable to Hive Tyrants and offer a real choice. This is all assuming that they will be Infantry. For CC, I keep arguing two attacks, and you prefer one. Since you call the shots, stick to it and we'll playtest it. My main argument is that 2 x CC and inferior shooting adds to the swarm of teeth and claws feeling. "Keep them away, and don't ever let them get in CC."

Shrikes: I think Shrikes and Winged Tyrant should follow the same design principle, i e lose ranged weapons, keep CC.

Hive Tyrants: Keep it simple, just give it CC and ranged. Every model, including the old ones are equipped in this way.

Malanthrope: MW works fine. My only concern is why one should take Tyrants. Unless Tyrants and fexes move 20 that is ;)

Tyranid Prime: I cannot see any real function for them, and I think they should be left out for now.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Synapse - HTs, Ts, Ms and TWs
PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:16 pm 
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Should the Space Marine Captain, Librarian and Chaplain be abstracted into the basic unit stats?
Tyranid Primes are not statwise significantly different in relative terms from a warrior but in absolute terms they would be more deserving than most character upgrades.
However we have an opportunity here to potentially merge the Tyranid Prime, Trygon Prime and Broodlord into a generic character upgrade that grants Synapse, an Extra Attack (maybe MW), commander and/or leader. Then the list can choose which units can be upgraded.
I think the old/new warriors should be merged as well like Zombo suggests

Fredmans - Winged Tyrants don't swap arms for wings, they keep all 4 arms and so have 2 weapon pairs, same as the walker.

I had Shrikes at 25cm due to a 10cm bump on a base move of 15cm. If the warriors are 20cm then go 30cm.

I think the overall movement direction needs to be sorted. Can you put up a list of just the creatures with your proposed movements (and any movement enhancing abilities). Everything on one thread that we can thrash out.


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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Synapse - HTs, Ts, Ms and TWs
PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:20 pm 
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I like the idea of 20cm base move for all nids, modified by infiltrator and jump packs (ie 30cm base for for stuff with jump packs).


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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Synapse - HTs, Ts, Ms and TWs
PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 9:36 pm 
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It's looking like everything bar zoanthropes, biovores, dactylis and exocrine are going to end up with 20cm or faster. I think the modern variants of those should follow suit, as well as the Hive Guard, Rippers and Dom.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Synapse - HTs, Ts, Ms and TWs
PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2011 10:47 pm 
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Hive Tyrant:
Actually he is armed with either a Heavy Venom Cannon or a Stranglethorn Cannon. 30cm AP3+/AT6+ fits the Heavy Venom Cannon.

Winged Tyrant:
Identical stats to wingless version. Only with Jumppacks and 30cm move. Perhabs without the ranged shot.

Tervigon:
I agree with zombocom and his reasonings.

Malanthrope:
These are now something like HQ (1-3 per choice) Venomthropes in IAApo2nd it seems. No Skimmer/Jumppacks please (and for the Zoanthrope too). Yes it floats but not as high and fast as true jumptroops.

Tyranid Warriors:
No split stats please. They really aren`t that different. Armour 5+ fits both versions (roughly equivalent as 6 Orks in `eavy armour).
Btw there is only one not two Deathspitter model for every two Bonesword armed models.
And i agree that the Venom Cannon would be a better match. 30cm AP5+ is just what i came up with.

Shrikes:
Those are Tyranid Warriors with worse save and Wings but else have the same stats and options.
So give them the same stats as regular Tyranid Warriors but with Jumppacks (move 30cm) and Armor -1 (so 6+ if regular TWs had 5+). I can live without the ranged shot.

Tyranid Primes:
Not needed. It only give some CC boost in Wh40k. Nothing else. I agree that it is more like a Sergeant. But the idea of an upgrade (Synapse Nexus) to represent Tyranid Primes, Broodlords and Trygon Primes has merit. Could grant Synapse and an +1EAMW attack. FF for Trygon Prime, CC for everything else.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Synapse - HTs, Ts, Ms and TWs
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 2:44 pm 
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Thinking over the winged Tyrant stats. Can I hear some thoughts on giving it a Barbed Strangler (30cm AP5+ Disrupt) to keep the regular tyrant attractive in lists where both are offered? Would that put them at roughly the same points or should the winged Tyrant still cost more?

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Synapse - HTs, Ts, Ms and TWs
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 2:57 pm 
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Why making the Winged Hive Tyrant even more desirable by giving him a ranged shot?

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Synapse - HTs, Ts, Ms and TWs
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:02 pm 
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I'm not doing anything yet, I'm asking what people think. The current winged tyrant is the same as the regular, just with a worse save, a faster move and jump pack.

Since we're looking at keeping their armor the same I'm looking for other ways to drop them down. A worse shot is one option. We could also go with twin devourers (15cm, AP3+).

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Synapse - HTs, Ts, Ms and TWs
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:27 pm 
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I thought the Winged is same stats as the wingless Tyrant but without any ranged shot. Basically two pairs of Scything Talons plus wings. FF of 5+ can remain as it represent the Leech Essence psychic power.
So you have the choice between slow but shooty and fast but no shooting.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Synapse - HTs, Ts, Ms and TWs
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:29 pm 
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In 9.2.1 it still has the Venom Cannon, just a worse save to compensate for the jump pack and faster move.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Synapse - HTs, Ts, Ms and TWs
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:47 pm 
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The 9.2.1 version uses the Daemon Prince trade-off between speed and armour. As this thread suggests that both versions have the same armour save, the question is whether there should be a trade-off at all or if the winged tyrant should just be more expensive.

I would like to see some kind of trade-off, but I am not certain that a reduced fire power will cut it. I would rather see no ranged fire at all.

The FW models trade wings for an arm pair.

/Fredmans


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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Synapse - HTs, Ts, Ms and TWs
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:53 pm 
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If we keep the save of the wingless version i say drop the ranged shot to even it out.

Somenews about the Malanthrope:
In IAA2nd it is similar to a Hive Tyrant but -1 S, T and A.
It's a Monstrous Creature, a Synapse with Fleet, Move Through Cover, Regeneration, Toxic Miasma (everyone in contact has to pass Toughness or takes a wound), Toxin Sacs (all attack are posionous 4+) and Prey Adaptation (no idea what that does).

So my guess:
AV Speed 20cm 3+Sv CC3+ FF6+
Synapse, Infiltrator, First Strike

Basically a big Venomthrope.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Synapse - HTs, Ts, Ms and TWs
PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 4:44 pm 
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Stat time again:

Hive Tyrant

Code:
AV   20cm   4+   3+   5+   Commander, Fearless, Leader, Reinforced Armour, Synapse
Venom Cannon   30cm   AP4+/AT5+   -
Lash Whip and Bonesword   (base contact)   Assault Weapons   Extra Attack (+1), Macro-weapon


The only changes from 9.2.1 was a Venom Cannon stat bump to reflect the latest 40k stats for it. Feel free to call it a Heavy VC if you like.

Winged Hive Tyrant

Code:
AV   30cm   4+   3+   5+   Commander, Fearless, Leader, Jump Pack, Reinforced Armour, Synapse
Twin Devourer   15cm   AP3+
Large Scything Talons   (base contact)   Assault Weapons   Extra Attack (+1), Macro-weapon


With the armor stating the same I dropped the ranged shot down. A price difference may still be needed however.

Tervigon

Code:
WE   15cm   5+   5+   5+   Damage Capacity: 2, Augmented Spawning (+1D3), Fearless, Leader, Reinforced Armour, Synapse
Stinger Salvo   (15cm)   Small Arms   -

Critical Hit Effect: The unit is destroyed. All units within 5cm take a hit on a 6+.


Let me know if those are right Zombo. I took a page out of the Chaos rules and named the spawn booster special rule similarly.

Malanthrope

Code:
AV   25cm   4+   3+   5+   Fearless, Invulnerable Save, Jump Pack, Reinforced Armour, Synapse
Poisoned Talons   (base contact)   Assault Weapons   Extra Attack (+1), Macro-weapon
Ripper Swarm   (15cm)   Small Arms   Extra Attack (+1)
   or   (base contact)   Assault Weapons   Extra Attack (+1)


Same with this guy.

Tyranid Warriors

Code:
INF   20cm   5+   2+   5+   Fearless, Synapse
Deathspitters   30cm   AP5+   -


Going with the compromise here rather than the split stats. They've been changed back to INF and got a CC decrease to reflect their 40k stats. The AT was dropped to reflect the venom cannon and the old deathspitters.

Shrikes

Code:
INF   30cm   5+   2+   5+   Fearless, Jump Packs, Synapse
Devourers   (15cm)   Small Arms   -


I think taking away the ranged shot should be enough to balance these guys against the Warriors without an armor decrease as well. If playtests show otherwise we can readdress it obviously.

Tyranid Prime

Code:
CH   n/a   n/a   n/a   n/a   Commander, Leader, Invulnerable Save
Twin Scything Talons   (base contact)   Assault Weapons   Extra Attack (+1)


Pretty much the Jorm. stats for these, I did remove the MW however given the Warriors CC2+. I added an invulnerable as that seems to be the pattern for characters in EA.

Synapse Symbiote

I missed this the first time around. Leviathan has it as a character which grants synapse and a FF EA MW. Jorm as a character that grants fearless and synapse. Arkturas and Zombo can you come to a compromise here? I'd give it an invulnerable, synapse and fearless but it's up to you guys.

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