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[Xeno-Biostatistics] Big WEs - SB, BB, H, H and the Dom

 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Big WEs - SB, BB, H, H and the Dom
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 12:52 pm 
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That hierophant looks superb and bears no relation to the awful 'phant in the EUK list (which costs a whopping 300 pts to boot!). I think it's too superb though. Maybe down to 25cm and take out one of the TK attacks? I think as list designers we need to move past the whole '2 claws so 2 EA' and '4 barrels so 4 shots' mentality and abstract things a bit more. The 4 base to base FS attacks are okay in my view - the thing is beastly in cc but it's very hard to set it up and nobody sane will attack it in cc anyway. A DC4 beast like that is very easy to break as well if clipped by something that outnumbers it so it's certainly vulnerable enough.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Big WEs - SB, BB, H, H and the Dom
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 1:24 pm 
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I'm happy to give the Hierophant 1 x EA with TKD3 instead of 2 EA with TK(1).

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Big WEs - SB, BB, H, H and the Dom
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 1:30 pm 
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I'd definitely stick with speed 25cm. I've tested it at that speed and it feels about right.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Big WEs - SB, BB, H, H and the Dom
PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 3:01 pm 
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Stat time:

Scythed Hierodule
Code:
WE   30cm   5+   3+   6+   Damage Capacity: 3, Fearless, Reinforced Armour
Bio-Acid Spray   15cm   AP3+   Ignore Cover
Massive Scything Talons   (base contact)   Assault Weapons   Extra Attack (+1), Titan-killer

Critical Hit Effect: The unit is destroyed. All units within 5cm take a hit on a 6+.


Barbed Hierodule
Code:
WE   20cm   5+   5+   5+   Damage Capacity: 3, Fearless, Reinforced Armour
Twin Bio-Cannon   45cm   2x AP3+/AT4+   -
Large Scything Talons   (base contact)   Assault Weapons   Extra Attack (+1), Macro-weapon

Critical Hit Effect: The unit is destroyed. All units within 5cm take a hit on a 6+.


Zombo, let me know if these two are correct.

Hierophant Bio-Titan (990.M41)
Code:
WE   25cm   4+   3+   5+   Damage Capacity: 5, Fearless, Invulnerable Save, Regeneration, Reinforced Armour
2x Bio-Titan Bio-Cannon   45cm   3x AP4+/AT5+   -
2x Massive Scything Talons   (base contact)   Assault Weapons   Extra Attack (+1), Titan-killer

The unit may step over units and pieces of terrain that are lower then its abdomen and less than 2cm wide.

Critical Hit Effect: Roll 1D6. On a 1 the unit loses 1 DC and all units within 5cm take a hit on a 6+. On a 2-5 the unit loses 1 DC. On a 6 the unit loses 2 DC.


I'm giving this guy a "pattern" that doesn't tie it to a specific Hive Fleet, rather a rough era when it was first spotted. Zombo let me know if this is right.

Hierodule Bio-Titan (745.M41)
Code:
WE   25cm   4+   3+   5+   Damage Capacity: 4, Fearless, Invulnerable Save, Regeneration, Reinforced Armour
0-1x Bile Launcher   60cm   3BP   Forward
Cluster Spines   30cm   4BP   Forward
0-1x Razorclaw   (base contact)   Assault Weapons   Extra Attack (+1), Titan-killer (D3)
   or   (15cm)   Small Arms   Extra Attack (+1)
2x Massive Scything Talons   (base contact)   Assault Weapons   Extra Attack (+1), Titan-killer

The unit may step over units and pieces of terrain that are lower then its abdomen and less than 2cm wide. The unit may be armed with either a Bile Launcher or a Razorclaw, not both.

Critical Hit Effect: Roll 1D6. On a 1 the unit loses 1 DC and all units within 5cm take a hit on a 6+. On a 2-5 the unit loses 1 DC. On a 6 the unit loses 2 DC.


I'm arming this guy with what he came with in the E40k box. As with the 'phant 990 I gave it a pattern that doesn't tie it to one fleet.

Hierophant Bio-Titan (745.M41)
Code:
WE   25cm   4+   3+   5+   Damage Capacity: 6, Fearless, Invulnerable Save, Regeneration, Reinforced Armour
Bio-Titan Bio-Cannon   45cm   3x AP4+/AT5+   Forward
0-1x Pyro-Acid Spray    15cm   3BP   Forward, Ignore Cover
0-1x Razorclaw   (base contact)   Assault Weapons   Extra Attack (+1), Titan-killer (D3)
   or   (15cm)   Small Arms   Extra Attack (+1)
Ripper Tentacles   (base contact)   Assault Weapons   Extra Attacks (+2), First Strike
2x Gigantic Scything Talons   (base contact)   Assault Weapons   Extra Attack (+1), Titan-killer (D3)

The unit may step over units and pieces of terrain that are lower then its abdomen and less than 2cm wide. The unit may be armed with either Pyro-Acid Spray or a Razorclaw, not both.

Critical Hit Effect: Roll 1D6. On a 1 the unit loses 1 DC and all units within 5cm take a hit on a 6+. On a 2-5 the unit loses 1 DC. On a 6 the unit loses 2 DC.


Again, arming this guy as he appeared in the E40k box.

Dominatrix
Code:
WE   20cm   4+   3+   5+   Damage Capacity: 4, Augmented Swarming (+1D3), Fearless, Invulnerable Save, Regeneration, Reinforced Armour, Supreme Commander, Synapse
Bio-Titan Bio-Cannon   45cm   3x AP4+/AT5+   Fixed Forward
Energy Pulse   60cm   3BP   Macro-weapon
2x Massive Scything Talons   (base contact)   Assault Weapons   Extra Attack (+1), Titan-killer

The unit may step over units and pieces of terrain that are lower then its abdomen and less than 2cm wide.

Critical Hit Effect: Roll 1D6. On a 1 the unit loses 1 DC and all units within 5cm take a hit on a 6+. On a 2-5 the unit loses 1 DC. On a 6 the unit loses 1 DC and the Supreme Commander and Synrapse special abilities.


I modeled these stats after the SM/TL version. The only concession was a speed bump to 20cm and a reduction in bio-cannon shots to not add another named weapon.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Big WEs - SB, BB, H, H and the Dom
PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 4:13 pm 
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The Hierophant Bio-Titan (990.M41) should have 2x Massive Scything Talons. Other than that they look right.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Big WEs - SB, BB, H, H and the Dom
PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 4:16 pm 
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Fixed. Just waiting on a word back from Arkturas and you two to agree on the Synapse Symbiote stats and then I'll post the ref sheet.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Big WEs - SB, BB, H, H and the Dom
PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 4:54 pm 
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I'm also kinda temped to do a Dominatrix Symbiote for my list, as it seems really odd that the Dom would have lower DC than the 'Phant.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Big WEs - SB, BB, H, H and the Dom
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:02 am 
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Why the krass speed differences between the Scythed and Barbed Hierodule? They have the same "chassis" but only different weapons.
Why twin Bio-Cannons on the Barbed hierodule? It has two indivudualones.

The Hierophant Bio-Titan (990.M41) should have Ripper Tentacles as the model is clearely armed with them.
Also wasn't it agreed that a Bio-Titan Bio-Cannon (apart from the daft name) has to be avoided as it is the same weapon as on the Hierodules/Harridans, etc?

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Big WEs - SB, BB, H, H and the Dom
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:24 am 
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BlackLegion wrote:
Why the krass speed differences between the Scythed and Barbed Hierodule? They have the same "chassis" but only different weapons.


You should like this one, as it's a direct interpretation of the 40k rules:

In 40k the Hierodules and 'phant move 12" basic (same as a rhino), then can trade weapon shots for extra movement. Thus a Scythed Hierodule moves a minimum of 12+d6" as it only has one weapon. If it doesn't fire the bio-acid it moves 12+2d6".

The Barbed 'dule and 'Phant have these rules too, but due to their heavier weapon loads I figure them less likely to trade shots for extra movement.

Most importantly, It also allows the Barbed and Scythed to remain at the same points cost as each other.

I could see an increase to 25cm on the Barbed actually, if only to allay these discussions.

BlackLegion wrote:
Why twin Bio-Cannons on the Barbed hierodule? It has two indivudualones.


Previous versions had a twin Bio-Cannon, and I felt that having two Bio-Cannons would make it too good in comparison with the Scythed. Pricing is important.

BlackLegion wrote:
The Hierophant Bio-Titan (990.M41) should have Ripper Tentacles as the model is clearely armed with them.


Actually, it's not. It's armed with a Lash Whip, which I have for now considered part of the CC stat. If it proves underpowered we can do something about adding First Strike at a later date.

BlackLegion wrote:
Also wasn't it agreed that a Bio-Titan Bio-Cannon (apart from the daft name) has to be avoided as it is the same weapon as on the Hierodules/Harridans, etc?


Actually in Apocalypse it's not the same weapon any more; the Hierophant version has 8 shots to the 6 shots on the 'dule and Harridan. It also serves to make the 'Phant a scary shooting platform like it is in 40k.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Big WEs - SB, BB, H, H and the Dom
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:41 am 
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Ah you try to beat me with my own weapons :D

Ok@Hierodule speeds. But a 10cm difference seems abit harsh. 30/25 would feel better than 30/20.
@Twin or not to twin: The Macharius has two turret mounted Battle Cannons in the same turret which aren`t twin-linked. The Hierodule has two Bio-Cannons. Each on one arm which can move independently from each other.
The Macharius has two Battle Cannon shots in Epic, so why shouldn't the Hierodule have two separate weapons?

@Ripper Tentacles: Ah ok wording problem. The Hierodule is armed with Lash Whips in Wh40kApo. And these decrease the Initiative of EVERY opponent in base contact to a mere 1 granting that the Hierodule always can strike first.

@Bio-Cannon: Yes but the Apocalypse book was written in times of the previous Codex. There the amount of shots of several weapons was tied to the number of Attacks a model has. In the current Codex this isn't the case anymore (which is a good thing!) So i assume that a Bio-Cannon is a Bio-Cannon.
Apart from this a single Bio-Cannon should still be 45cm 2 x AP3+/AT4+ possibly with Ignore Cover because of the near identical stats of the Demolisher. 3-4 shots roughly equals the average number of models you can get under the Demolishers 5" template.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Big WEs - SB, BB, H, H and the Dom
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:50 am 
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BlackLegion wrote:
Ah you try to beat me with my own weapons :D


But of course :)

BlackLegion wrote:
Ok@Hierodule speeds. But a 10cm difference seems abit harsh. 30/25 would feel better than 30/20.


Agreed, we'll move to that.

BlackLegion wrote:
The Macharius has two Battle Cannon shots in Epic, so why shouldn't the Hierodule have two separate weapons?


Honestly the main reason is because 2x is a lot better than Twin. Right now I think the 'dules can be costed the same, but if you give the Barbed 2x Bio-Cannons then it becomes worth significantly more than the Scythed.

BlackLegion wrote:
@Ripper Tentacles: Ah ok wording problem. The Hierodule is armed with Lash Whips in Wh40kApo. And these decrease the Initiative of EVERY opponent in base contact to a mere 1 granting that the Hierodule always can strike first.


I'm aware of this, but I'm loathe to give a DC5 War Engine first strike on its basic attacks. I will do so if it proves neccessary, but for now I think it's enough of a CC beast. If playtesting proves otherwise, we'll give it FS.

Quote:
@Bio-Cannon: Yes but the Apocalypse book was written in times of the previous Codex. There the amount of shots of several weapons was tied to the number of Attacks a model has. In the current Codex this isn't the case anymore (which is a good thing!) So i assume that a Bio-Cannon is a Bio-Cannon.


Shrug. It's the latest rules we have to go on, and co-incidentally allows us to make the (previously pretty weak) Hierophant into a nasty titan-equivilent. Should they bring out new rules, we will of course be able to look again at them.

Quote:
Apart from this a single Bio-Cannon should still be 45cm 2 x AP3+/AT4+ possibly with Ignore Cover because of the near identical stats of the Demolisher. 3-4 shots roughly equals the average number of models you can get under the Demolishers 5" template.


The stats are up to Dave.

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