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[Xeno-Biostatistics] Big WEs - SB, BB, H, H and the Dom

 Post subject: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Big WEs - SB, BB, H, H and the Dom
PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 4:46 pm 
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I'm looking at bringing back Regeneration for the last three on this list ('dule, 'phant and Dom). It won't be the old version which allowed a bio-titan the chance to completely heal itself in the end phase however. Not sure what it's going to be at this point (that's for the Regeneration thread) but a special invulnerable save, something tied to regrouping, or a single DC in the end phase are all possibilities.

I want to do this for two reasons. First, all the titans get some kind of special rule (Void Shields, Power Fields, Holofields, Shadowfields, Living Metal, etc.) and I'd like the 'nids to stick with that trend. And second, I'm not a fan of the inflated DC abstraction.

Anyway, onto the breakdown.

Scythed Hierodule

Looking at the stats for these in IA4 they beat out the Trygon with a better save and toughness along with another mass point. By the Apoc stats they're more on par with the Trygon however in those areas. So thoughts on DC and armor here? Going by IA4 I think they'd be about 3DC with 4+RA which is what they are in 9.2.1. By the Apoc stats It probably be more of a 3DC 5+RA.

On the move, I don't see a reason why they should have more than a 15cm move. But given the speed bump of the 'fex and the rest I could see 20cm here as well but not higher. Thoughts?

For CC they're 4 attacks at WS6 S10 in IA4 and 7 attacks at WS4 S10 in Apoc. Both of those edge out the Trygon but given that'll probably be 3DC instead of 2DC I think the CC should be the same as the Trygon. I can see a TK(1) extra attack for its talons though over the MW of the Trygons. 3CC4+ with an EA TK(1).

It's armed with the equivalent of a Heavy Flamer in both Apoc and IA4 so 15cm AP4+ Ignore Cover there. With that being its own armament however I can't see a reason for it to have more than FF6+ at 3DC. 3@FF6+ is good enough.

9.2.1 has these guys as Brood but given their Ld in IA4 and Apoc I think they're more Independents. They are not Fearless however in 9.2.1. I'm less tentative introducing Fearless here then I am with the Trygon but what are people's thoughts? There's going to be a lot of units with Fearless in this list if we give it to all the WEs and Synapse.

What are people in favor of for a crit? An extra DC? Thrash about and hit things in BtB? Dead? Explode? Some combination?

Barbed Hierodule

I think only the CC, FF and armament need adjustment here over the Scythed.

For CC they have 2 attacks at WS4, S8 in IA4 and 5 attacks at WS4, S10 in Apoc. That's roughly half of the Scythed in both instances. 3CC5+ with no EA TK or MW?

They armed with two Bio-Cannons but in IA4 they count as twin linked. Given that we're looking at either 2x MW4+ or a MW3+. Preferences? Either way I think an EA MW FF is called for: 3@FF5+ with an EA MW.

Leviathan Hierophant/Onachus Hierodule

I'm hoping to use the same stats here, just with a unit rename.

For DC and armor, comparing it to the scythed/barbed 'dules from IA4 buts it at 4DC with 4+RA. For the Apoc and SM/TL stats that's pretty close as well.

On move, they were very fast in SM/TL (25cm). Do we want to keep them at that? I'm in favor of it.

For the CC, it has 5 attacks in IA4 and 8 in Apoc, both at WS6, S10. Given 4DC I still think CC4+ is good enough when compared to the Trygon/Scythed 'dule stats but given it's CC compared to a Reaver we could also go CC3+ here. With both the old SM/TL model and FW model being armed with two big talons I think two TK(1) extra attacks are called for too. So 4@CC4+ with 2EA TK(1) or 4@CC3+ with 2EA TK(1)?

For armament I think two "hard points" is enough for both the Leviathan/Onachus versions. I'm fine letting the weapons be different between the two. I think a FF of 5+ is good no matter what it's armed with.

As to special rules beyond Fearless and Regeneration I think an Invulnerable Save is called for given its Psychic save from SM/TL and Warp Field from IA4. That may go depending on what Regeneration becomes.

Again, thoughts on crits?

Onachus Hierophant

I think similar stats to the 'dule are good enough, with the exception of 6DC and their claws. That was the only real difference in SM/TL.

For the claws, I think 2EA TK(d3) would be better than just TK(1) given their size on the model. I'll bring up the CC here again though. CC4+ or CC3+? We're looking at 6 attacks here with two more tk(d3) attacks too. Beyond that the thing could also be armed with Razorclaws...

Also, the model usually comes armed with ripper tentacles on the chin. I think 2 EA CC FS for those is good enough.

Crit thoughts?

Dominatrix

Given the size of the model we have and its stats relative to the 'dule in SM/TL and E40k I think 4DC is enough. However, I'm willing to entertain bigger Dominatrix units for the later Hive Fleets to represent their evolution.

For armor, CC and FF I think she should be the same as the other bio-titans.

The models armed with a Bio-cannon so I think that one is easy enough. And the Talons I'd but closer to the 'dule than the 'phant or Carnifex, so 2 EA CC TK(1)s.

She was never armed with bio-plasma breath, but rather an energy pulse in SM/TL. That was a 3x12cm area of attack weapon that had a range of 100cm and good armor penetration. Given how that compares to what I came up with for the Bile Launcher I link 60cm 3BP MW fits. Thoughts?

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Big WEs - SB, BB, H, H and the Dom
PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:07 pm 
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Scythed Hierodule

DC3, 4+ Reinforced

20cm at minimum or they're not worth taking. Why would anyone take a 15cm CC specialist war engine?

They should be neither brood nor independent, just normal units that need synapse but can't be spawned.

Fearless is a given. Yes a lot of units will have it, but given that you're dropping the stats on just about everything I think that's a fair trade.

Barbed Hierodule

CC5+, FF4+

Twin Biocannon, and again I don't like the single MW shot idea, I prefer 9.2.1's 2 shot non MW.

Leviathan Hierophant/Onachus Hierodule

Quote:
I'm hoping to use the same stats here, just with a unit rename.


I really think you need to rename the units in Onachus to match with the new naming style. Having Hierodules and 'phants refering to different things in the list is confusing. Sure, Hydraphant is a rubbish name, but Hierarch is a cool name, and will really solve a lot of confusion.

25cm, 4DC, 4+Reinforced, Inv

Standard weapons should be 2 biocannons, and some bonus CC abilities for its claws. CC3+ and either one TK(d3) or 2xTK(1)

FF5+ is fine.

Onachus Hierophant

Call it a Hierarch.

Dominatrix

I'd prefer higher than DC4; even the old model was way chunkier and tougher looking than the 'dule.

One way to represent it would be as a "Dominatrix Symbiote" character on another biotitan, as that's what they are in the fluff.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Big WEs - SB, BB, H, H and the Dom
PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:16 pm 
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zombocom wrote:
Dominatrix

I'd prefer higher than DC4; even the old model was way chunkier and tougher looking than the 'dule.


Like I said, if you want to come up with something else put it forward. But given the SM/TL, E40k and LoB stats and how they compare to the small bio-titan I think 4DC fits. The old model might look tougher looking than the SM/TL 'dule but it's still not bigger than that.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Big WEs - SB, BB, H, H and the Dom
PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:47 pm 
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It just looks tougher, plus as supreme commander it should be a bit tougher, so DC 5 or 6 seems sensible.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Big WEs - SB, BB, H, H and the Dom
PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:40 pm 
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i have a fairly significant interest in biotitans, and so far i like what i see. i'd like an extra point of DC on the big three though
regeneration, my vote would be to use the existing necron mechanic, simply applied to DC instead of units (so it automatically recovers 1 per end-phase, and if regrouping can heal faster, this seems pretty fair to me, because while it can allow for rapid regeneration, it requires them to spend a turn on it, and no nid wants to stand around when there is killing left to be done!)

i think the crits should be "dies, thrashes about and hits units in BtB" for the hierodules (so fitting in with the superheavies they're equivalent to)
for the biotitans, i think the crit should probably be "loses regeneration, each additional crit does an extra point of damage"

I'd like to see the Dominatrix be two statlines. one for the dominatrix itself, and one for the dominatrix symbiote as a character upgrade. this leaves the way for tweaking elsewhere, and you can add the extra DC into the symbiote itself to allow it to protect its supcom (which i think is important, a DC4 supcom is a little vulnerable

naming conventions. i have a small additional bias here. i'm working on a biotitan list (so far, most of my changes are same as yours, so thats nice) and i kinda wanted to use the hierarch as the "biggest thing they've got" titan (9DC regen) but i'm sure i can manage. however, to keep things simpler, perhaps the new "smaller" hierophant should be called "Greater Hierodule"
(so it'd go "Hierodule (scythed/barbed) Greater Hierodule (old epic Hierodule, 40k Hierophant) Hierophant (old epic Hierophant) Hierarch (new big beasty)" but again, thats perhaps just me. it does mean that we've still got a different name to the 40k ones, but i think they can probably manage)

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Big WEs - SB, BB, H, H and the Dom
PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:00 pm 
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Hierodules:
Both versions have the same agility rules as the Warhound (shoot one weapon add D6 to move, shoot none add 2D6 to move).
So actually Speed 30cm wouldn't be out of the question. Or 20cm Infiltrators at least for the Scythed Hierodule.

Same Wounds as Trygon but more tougher. I say DC3 RA5+ here.
It's Ld10 and Fearless (Gargantuan Creature) so Fearless in Epic fits.
Note: If you drop Fearless from Trygon/Mawloc then it should go from Carnifex too.

Barbed Hierodule:
CC 5+ FF4+
2 x Bio-Cannon 45cm 2 x AP3+/AT4+

Scyted Hierodule
CC4+ FF6+
Bio-Acid Spray 30cm AP3+ Ignore Cover (it's a large template Inferno Cannon)
2 x Titan Scything Talons EA+1 TK(1)

Crit on both = instand death.

Leviathan Hierophant:
DC4 or 5 4+RA Invulnerable Save (Warpfield) Fearless
Has the same Agility rule as the Warhound so 30cm speed is justified.
CC3+ FF5+
2 x Titan Scything Talons EA+2 TK(1)
2x Bio-Cannon 45cm 2 x AP3+/AT4+

Dominatrix:
An improved Synapse Symbiote which gives Brood Mother, Synapse, +1DC and a MWFF EA added to a Titan would fit.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Big WEs - SB, BB, H, H and the Dom
PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:35 pm 
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Quote:
On the move, I don't see a reason why they should have more than a 15cm move.

Sure, can I have them at 50 pts then? Since their only use will be as meatshields (due to being WE) for other units. And you can drop the talons too as they will never be used.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Big WEs - SB, BB, H, H and the Dom
PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 4:11 pm 
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Hierodule comment: This is a case of "shared chassis", where the Scythed has 2 x CC, and Barbed has twin-linked + CC.

The most reasonable approach would be:

Scythed Hierodule: 2 x EA CC MW

Barbed Hierodule: Twin-linked Bio-cannon, 1 x EA MW

If you insist on TK, that could be deduced from a twin-linked argument, giving it:

1 x EA CC TK

Scythed Hierodule should be given a minimum of 20 cm move, unless you intend it to be nearly pointless. Sure, one could use it in a defensive role, but there are other list options that will be cheaper as well.

Bio-titans: Less starting DC and a regeneration rule like 1 DC back in the end phase is a reasonable way to go. The current High DC and Fearless means that they are almost impossible to take out for an opponent.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Big WEs - SB, BB, H, H and the Dom
PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 4:21 pm 
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I think army champions need a better save.

FWIW EUK's Harridans are @ DC 3 and 5+ RA and I've played that list twice and they're still underpriced at 225 each.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Big WEs - SB, BB, H, H and the Dom
PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 6:34 pm 
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BTW the Leciathan Hierophant also has Ripper Tentacles. As Ripper Tentacles reduce the Initiative of ALL models in contact to 1. So i have the tendency to propose First Strike to the Levathan Hierophants Notes section.
If not (because First Strike to FF makes no sense)then:
Ripper Tentacles (base contact) Assault Weapon First Strike
and then in the Note:
Ripper Tentacles confer First-Strike to the units basic close combat attacks.
This way the Leviathan Hierophant has 4 First Strike attacks and 2 regular EA with TK(1).

The datasheet for the Hierophant could look this:

Hierophant (Hive Fleet Leviathan)
Type Speed Armour CloseCombat Firefight
War Engine 30cm 4+ 3+ 5+
Weapon Range Firepower Notes
2 x Bio-Cannon 45cm 2 x AP3+/AT4+ Forward Arc
2 x Titan Scything Claws (base cotnact) Assault Weapon Extra Attack+1 (TK1)
Ripper Tentacles (base contact) Assault Weapon First Strike

Damage Capacity 4. Critical Hit Effect: The Hierophant's brain is destroyed. The Hierophant is killed; and as it thrashes in his death spams any units within 5cm of the model suffer a hit on a D6 roll of 6.

Notes: Invulnerable Save, Regeneration, Reinforced Armour. The Ripper Tentacles confer the First-Strike ability to the unit's basic closecombat attacks.

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Last edited by BlackLegion on Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Big WEs - SB, BB, H, H and the Dom
PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2011 6:47 pm 
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carlos wrote:
I think army champions need a better save.


I'm running approximate calculations concerning Dave's armour save, and the computer suggest 2+ Reinforced Thick Rear Armour at the moment. A better save than that would be game-breaking and surely unbalance the Tyranids.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Big WEs - SB, BB, H, H and the Dom
PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2011 1:24 pm 
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I can see the direction of the Dominatrix having looked at the NetEpic Tyranid list. As essentially a lighter WE the key I think would be in the points. I'd also like to see the 0-1 limit removed and potentially having multiple supreme commanders (counts as one for all relevant rules but you'd need to kill all the Dom's to lose supreme commander). If the points are right and the Dom can take a bodyguard then I don't think theres much of a problem.


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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Big WEs - SB, BB, H, H and the Dom
PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 3:29 pm 
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I'd like to see speed 25cm for the Scythed Hierodule and (lev) Hierophant, speed 20cm for the Barbed Hierodule. This links in to BL's point about their agility rules in 40k.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Big WEs - SB, BB, H, H and the Dom
PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 8:50 pm 
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zombocom wrote:
I'd like to see speed 25cm for the Scythed Hierodule and (lev) Hierophant, speed 20cm for the Barbed Hierodule. This links in to BL's point about their agility rules in 40k.

I like the ripper tentacles idea giving FS to basic CC attacks.


Do we want a weapon that scales with DC, particularly as it could appear on larger DC creatures in a Bio-titan list, at least without a cap on the number of attacks it upgrades?
Would 4 FS attacks on the DC4 Lev Hierophant be the highest number of FS attacks on a unit in the game?


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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Big WEs - SB, BB, H, H and the Dom
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 11:11 am 
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Ripper Tentacles are supposed to affect ALL units in base contact in Wh40k. Yes the Hierophant IS a really fearsome CC beast.

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