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[Xeno-Biostatistics] Little WEs - Ts, Ms, Ts and Hs

 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Little WEs - Ts, Ms, Ts and Hs
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 4:35 pm 
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I really wish 40k stats were never mentioned when statting up stuff for Epic. Fluff found in 40k books sure, but never the actual rules. Three tiers of nid initiative is simulating for simulation's sake, not really an attempt at creating a workable army.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Little WEs - Ts, Ms, Ts and Hs
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 4:51 pm 
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Agreed; treating 40k stats as some kind if inviolate perfect simulation of whatever is silly, especially considering how often GW itself chances said stats. Fluff should be a much stronger guiding hand in this rather than stats from another game which are primarily (we all would hope!) chosen for game balance and not to. Ost accurately represent something which doesn't even actually exist.


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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Little WEs - Ts, Ms, Ts and Hs
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 4:56 pm 
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carlos wrote:
Three tiers of nid initiative is simulating for simulation's sake, not really an attempt at creating a workable army.

Agreed.

Two tiers (Synapse/self-aware being easy to activate, versus leaderless being hard to activate) I can deal with.

Three tiers is just unnessesary IMO.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Little WEs - Ts, Ms, Ts and Hs
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 7:28 pm 
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Fine, so:

Synapse in formation or Independent Formation: 1+
Formations that lose synapse: 3+

Simples.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Little WEs - Ts, Ms, Ts and Hs
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 7:52 pm 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
carlos wrote:
Three tiers of nid initiative is simulating for simulation's sake, not really an attempt at creating a workable army.

Agreed.

Two tiers (Synapse/self-aware being easy to activate, versus leaderless being hard to activate) I can deal with.

Three tiers is just unnessesary IMO.


So the logical extension then for a 2 Tier System is either

1) Synapse unit in formation - Initiative 1+, All others - Initiative 3+ (would require synapse being given to a lot of creatures to enable independent operation)
2) Standard - Initiative 1+, Any formation with a Brood unit and no Synapse unit - Initiative 3+ (if you kill off all the brood units you could jump back up to 1+, limited to WE in synapse formations though)

Zombo would Raveners accompanying a Trygon (or Prime if required) chosen as an independent formation be Initiative 1+ or 3+ after the Trygon is killed? (Also Harridan/harpy/gargoyle).
Your wording has overlapping clauses for Independent formations with synapse. An independent formation that contains only Raveners for instance would be 1+ whereas a formation that started with synapse but now only contains Raveners would be 3+. Potentially a list design issue.


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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Little WEs - Ts, Ms, Ts and Hs
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 10:57 pm 
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No, under my system there's no possibility for independent formations with synapse. In my system, there are no independent raveners; they can only go with a trygon if it's a Trygon Prime. Ditto for gargoyles with harridan; they can only go with it if the harridan has a synapse symbiote.

This way, the only "independent" formations are the truly independent ones; lictors, genestealers and meiotic spores. Everything else needs synapse or it'll have 3+ initiative. I just allow several big creatures access to synapse.

It's all in the list design in Leviathan; several formations types that were previously Independent have been moved to Symbiotic Swarms where a War Engine with a symbiote acts as the synapse creature (like the Trygon Prime).

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Little WEs - Ts, Ms, Ts and Hs
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2011 11:18 pm 
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Agree about the slavish attention to 40k stats. Sometimes the 40k stats are horribly divergent from the fluff.

An example: A guy I recruited half a year ago told me he though originally thought it was strange that Wave Serpents were tougher than Falcons. That is because Falcons run around with holo fields in 40k, while serpents can't have them.

Of course, the fluff on serpents have always been that they are tougher than Falcons. It's just that when they added holo fields as wargear they disallowed it from serpents as they have a field as standard - a much, much weaker field than a holo field. So because of this weird inconsistency in the wargear rules falcons are now perceived as being incredibly tough in 40k, even though they are and always have been a lightly armoured, heavily armed skimmer - more an attack helicopter than a tank.


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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Little WEs - Ts, Ms, Ts and Hs
PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:28 am 
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zombocom wrote:
Fine, so:

Synapse in formation or Independent Formation: 1+
Formations that lose synapse: 3+

Simples.

Looks fine to me! :-)

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Little WEs - Ts, Ms, Ts and Hs
PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 10:55 am 
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Ok so we settle for the two tiered system (1+ Initiative or 3+) and ignoring all the fluff about non-Synapse led creatures operating as the vanguard of a Tyranid army.

So Genestealers and Lictors are initiative 3+ unless we invent a Synapse version for them.
Same for Harridans and Bio-Titans. Very odd if you remember that the Synapse Symbiote upgrade also would grand some kind of MW extra attack.
But well a Synapse shouldn't be mandatory. I can see, for example, Trygon and Raveners swarms operating without a mandatory Synapse Trygon Prime. Same for Harridans, Gargoyles and other Vanguard type critters. Yes Initiative would be 3+ but well you want it so.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Little WEs - Ts, Ms, Ts and Hs
PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 10:59 am 
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You're not reading what's written, BL. The non-synapsed indies would get 1+ too.
Quote:
Synapse in formation or Independent Formation: 1+
Formations that lose synapse: 3+

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Little WEs - Ts, Ms, Ts and Hs
PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 11:13 am 
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For my understanding there is no such thing as an Independent Formtion. There are Synapses, Broods and generic Units. That's why i suggested a three tiered Initiative system as it makes the most sense both from fluff and Wh40k rules system.
With the introduction of an "Independent Formation" you run the risk of having Synapse-less Broods and Independent-Broods of the same unit type running around with different Initiative values.
You have to invent new Synapses creatures to counter this and remove the concept of an "Independent Formation". There are only Synapse Formation. Either with Synapse (1+ Initiative) or no Synapse (3+ Initiative). And if you do this then the Synapse Upgrade shouldn't grand any other ability than "Synapse" (no Extra Attacks, etc). And even then it is as misleading a term as "Walker" on a White Scars Bike ;)

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Little WEs - Ts, Ms, Ts and Hs
PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 11:29 am 
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You're still not getting it. The independent formation (which is nothing new, btw) can only be Lictors, Genestealers and meiotic spores, who have all incidentally always been independent.

And the new synapse creature that has to be invented is the synapse symbiote character upgrade.


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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Little WEs - Ts, Ms, Ts and Hs
PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 11:36 am 
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I understand this. Yet i advocat removing Initiative by formation type and have it based on unit type. With my three tiered proposal Lictors, Genstealers, etc would have Initiative 2+ as they are neither Synapses nor Brood.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Little WEs - Ts, Ms, Ts and Hs
PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 11:38 am 
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BlackLegion wrote:
I understand this. Yet i advocat removing Initiative by formation type and have it based on unit type. With my three tiered proposal Lictors, Genstealers, etc would have Initiative 2+ as they are neither Synapses nor Brood.

That is understood.

However it doesn't seem to be a popular proposal, as people would prefer something simpler, apparently (So do I).

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Little WEs - Ts, Ms, Ts and Hs
PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 11:47 am 
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Yes im outvoted. Then go on and invent stuff not backed up by fluff or 40k rules :)

Speaking of 40k. Someone mentioned the uber-hard Falcon while in Fluff the Serpent is harder to destroy than the Falcon. Yes this is true. But you should have a look at the "naked" unit and then you will see that the Serpent IS tougher than the Falcon.
Fluff and actual game behaviour only collide if you take into acount the win-at-all-cost gamers who outkit their Falcons with Holofields, Spirit Stones, etc all at once.
Sadly a Wh40k fluff army isn't as competitive as some gamers would prefere. But at least then you army behaves as in fluff...only that it won't win against any win-at-all-cost gamers :D

You would be surprised that ihaven't played a game of Wh40k for nearly 10 years :D

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