Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 24 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

[Xeno-Biostatistics] Slugtank Brood - Ds, Es, Hs and Ms

 Post subject: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Slugtank Brood - Ds, Es, Hs and Ms
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:19 pm 
Hybrid
Hybrid
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 11:25 pm
Posts: 8662
Location: Worcester, MA
Up next are the Slug-for-a-Butt Brood, the oldies from SM/TL and Armorcast days. All these guys will have Brood.

On armor, in everything I've look at for these (SM/TL, Lords of Battle, the 40k3e VDR rules, and 40k2e datafaxes from Armorcast) they have all had armor values equivalent to or better than a Carnifex or Leman Russ. Once more, they've all been the same armor values (or near enough in the case of the 40k2e datafaxes). Given that, I'm looking to have all four of these guys have 4+RA. For the shooty flugs this meant a bit of an increase when we playtested them.

Haruspex

On move they were faster than regular infantry in SM/TL and the 40k2e datafaxes so I think 20cm fits.

Give their number of attacks in LoB and 40k3e as well as their CAF in SM/TL I think a CC that's equivalent to the 'fex and tyrant is right (CC3+ EA+1MW) but not two extra attacks.

On their shooting attacks, they were armed with acid jets and frag spines (two each) in all of the above as well. Fragspines work out to be a frag missile at 24" in 40k (so 15cm AP5+) and acid jets a S8 attack at 24" so I'm looking to give them 2x AP5+/AT6+ at 15cm.

For FF, I think two Multilaser equivalents are enough for FF5+ I think but not 4+ (that of a Russ).

Malefactor

These were faster than all the other creatures in both SM/TL, 40k3 and 2e so I think 25cm fits.

What they had in everything I've looked at which they don't have in EA is transport capacity. These are "line breakers" as per the fluff, delivering smaller brood creatures into the thick of the fighting. I'm looking to give them a transport capacity of 2, with raveners and warriors counting as 2 units.

For attacks they had two frag spines, given what I said above with the Haruspex I think 2x AP5+ at 15cm is enough. And two heavy bolter equivalents is still good enough to gain a FF of 5+ I believe.

As for their CC, they're still pretty devastating in everything I've looked at but not as much so as Carnifex and Haruspex. I think a slight downgrade of CC4+ with EA+1MW is enough for them.

Dactylis

These guys are lumbering in LoB and have the same speed as infantry in SM/TL. Given that they should probably be 15cm in EA but that's going to allow them to garrison. What are people's thoughts here? They still had a faster than infantry move in 40k2e, I'll have to check the 3e stats later though.

For CC, they and the Exocrine have identical stats in LoB (2 attacks at S10) and were close in the other three things. I don't think they should have MW for their CC but I definitely think it should be better than your average tank. I'm thinking CC4+ here for both, I can see CC5+ though. Thoughts?

For shooting attacks the current stats abstract the LoB stats and replicate the SM/TL stats pretty good I think. 45cm for G72" and 1BP for the Apoc barrage. Again, as with the Biovore I think the Disrupt ability fits here fluff-wise. Thoughts?

For FF, I think they're on par with a Whirlwinds so FF5+ fits.

Exocrine

Same issues on the move as Dactylis.

Same CC as Dactylis.

For shooting, the stats for the Biocannon are pretty scary, ignoring the rediculously over the top stats from LoB they were the equivalent to a Demolisher Cannon in IA4 but at 48". I've been testing them as 45cm MW4+ for awhile and have found them good but not rediciously so. We tried this for Demolishers but found it broke Minervans. Given their rarity in composition I think it won't be a huge problem but still worth testing.

I started these guys out at FF4+ MW thanks to the Biocannon but that proved a little too good. I'm looking to keep them at FF5+ now. Thoughts?

_________________
Dave

Blog

NetEA Tournament Pack Website

Squats 2018-05-15


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Slugtank Brood - Ds, Es, Hs and Ms
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:12 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:13 am
Posts: 8708
Location: Leipzig, Germany, Europe, Sol III, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group, Virgo Supercluster, Universe
Judging from your descriptions your stats all seem fine :)

For the Exocrines Biocannon: It`s a single Titan-grade Bio-cannon so give it the same stats as the Hierophant (the small Bio-Titan), Harridan, etc.

_________________
We are returned!
http://www.epic-wargaming.de/


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Slugtank Brood - Ds, Es, Hs and Ms
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:46 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:49 am
Posts: 5568
The only area in which I have a vested interest with these guys is the Biocannon. Personally I'd prefer so keep the current 2 shots, whatever the stats of the weapon are.

_________________
http://www.troublemakergames.co.uk/
Epic: Hive Development Thread


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Slugtank Brood - Ds, Es, Hs and Ms
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:56 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:13 am
Posts: 8708
Location: Leipzig, Germany, Europe, Sol III, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group, Virgo Supercluster, Universe
But the rate of fire/blast area doesn`t justify more than one shot (or has it at least 6 shots in IAA2nd?). 45cm AP3+/AT4+ is pretty accurat regarding the similarity to the Demolisher.

Anyone has the Bio-Cannon stats of the FW Harridan in Imperial Armour Apocalypse Second Edition?

_________________
We are returned!
http://www.epic-wargaming.de/


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Slugtank Brood - Ds, Es, Hs and Ms
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:12 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:15 am
Posts: 1832
Location: Oslo, Norway
Removing transport capacity was a deliberate change with EA. Big bugs transporting lesser bugs don't make all that much sense, except maybe for flying beasties. IT's also nice to have an army without transports, something that all other armies use quite a lot. Don't be the new Necron codex!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Slugtank Brood - Ds, Es, Hs and Ms
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:19 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:13 am
Posts: 8708
Location: Leipzig, Germany, Europe, Sol III, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group, Virgo Supercluster, Universe
Ah yes.
Dropping the transport options of the Malefasctor was an early Epic design principle for the Tyranids.
So the Haruspex is the CC-tank (big claws and bio-acid spray) and the Malefactor transformed to the FF-tank (frag-spine).

Btw: I really can`t see how a giant slug could be faster than a multi legged creature.

_________________
We are returned!
http://www.epic-wargaming.de/


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Slugtank Brood - Ds, Es, Hs and Ms
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 11:33 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2008 3:22 pm
Posts: 5678
Location: Australia
Quote:
What they had in everything I've looked at which they don't have in EA is transport capacity. These are "line breakers" as per the fluff, delivering smaller brood creatures into the thick of the fighting. I'm looking to give them a transport capacity of 2, with raveners and warriors counting as 2 units.


The Tarrasque list has these with a transport capacity.

I will reply on the rest when I get the time today.

_________________
Frogbear is responsible for...
Previous World Eaters
Previous Emperor's Children
Previous Death Guard
Previous Imperial Fists
Chaos Squats


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Slugtank Brood - Ds, Es, Hs and Ms
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 11:09 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:49 am
Posts: 5568
How about Brood Mother instead of transport? It's more oblique, but represents pretty much the same thing...

_________________
http://www.troublemakergames.co.uk/
Epic: Hive Development Thread


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Slugtank Brood - Ds, Es, Hs and Ms
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 11:11 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20861
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire
I quite like them as transports. It gives the Old Style list something unique.

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Slugtank Brood - Ds, Es, Hs and Ms
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 11:14 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:15 am
Posts: 1832
Location: Oslo, Norway
I liked the original concepts behind the EA nids list :-/ (spawning and moving away from critters that are simply analogs to mechanical vehicles, like transports and extra shooty stuff).


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Slugtank Brood - Ds, Es, Hs and Ms
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 11:19 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2007 11:41 pm
Posts: 227
Location: Sweden
Thank you for wanting to streamline the old bio-tanks, and for not nerfing the Exocrine. I always hated that it was worse armoured than the other ones.

As for the transport capacity, I think the main thing was that the bio-tanks gave protection to the smaller critters that rode along in it. So as long as you can group inf critters together with bio-tanks, you'll get the same effect, that is protection from fire while advancing on the enemy.

_________________
"Don't use finesse, if force will solve the problem."

- Lieutenant General Michael O'Neal


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Slugtank Brood - Ds, Es, Hs and Ms
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 11:22 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:15 am
Posts: 1832
Location: Oslo, Norway
Ares wrote:
As for the transport capacity, I think the main thing was that the bio-tanks gave protection to the smaller critters that rode along in it. So as long as you can group inf critters together with bio-tanks, you'll get the same effect, that is protection from fire while advancing on the enemy.


Very nice point.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Slugtank Brood - Ds, Es, Hs and Ms
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 2:28 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2008 3:22 pm
Posts: 5678
Location: Australia
Ares wrote:
As for the transport capacity, I think the main thing was that the bio-tanks gave protection to the smaller critters that rode along in it. So as long as you can group inf critters together with bio-tanks, you'll get the same effect, that is protection from fire while advancing on the enemy.

The difference comes with Barrage weapons and how many targets the opponent is rolling for. Could go either way really :)

_________________
Frogbear is responsible for...
Previous World Eaters
Previous Emperor's Children
Previous Death Guard
Previous Imperial Fists
Chaos Squats


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Slugtank Brood - Ds, Es, Hs and Ms
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 5:27 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 3:15 pm
Posts: 1316
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Just a few thoughts and comments:

Haruspex: I support a down-grading of their CC abilities. Whenever I actually got into close combat with these, I felt apologetic about it and that is not a good thing. However, they do get even closer to Carnifexes, so whatever you go for, there has to be some discernible difference. Another option would be to give them +2 Attacks without MW (the old Trygon) and give Trygon the MW instead.

Dactylis: Yes, I am in favour of Disrupt on the same grounds as for the Biovores. It has been tried, and is not overpowered. I would put 20cm move on them as well as on the Exocrines to avoid Garrison for now. If it is felt to be needed, then amend it later.

Exocrines: I feel a bit reluctant about giving them MW. Tyranids, for the moment, has some unique design principles like no transports and no ranged MW. I think the Epic UK stats are ridiculous for these, so why not keep the 2 x AP4/AT5+. Another option would be AP3+/AT4+ Disrupt or Ignore Cover (think of living ammunition). Instead of MW, they could get the 4+FF instead.

Malefactor: I think the Transport is essentially unnecessary, and would muddle the basic design principles.

4+ RA. The models basically share the same construction. 9.2.1 had four different armour saves for them, which was a bit annoying. "They look the same, but these have RA." To avoid making them overly expensive 5+RA would be an option.

/Fredmans


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Slugtank Brood - Ds, Es, Hs and Ms
PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:40 pm 
Hybrid
Hybrid
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 11:25 pm
Posts: 8662
Location: Worcester, MA
Stat time:

Haruspex

Code:
AV   20cm   4+   3+   5+   Brood, Reinforced Armour
Acid Jets and Frag Spines   15cm   2x AP5+/AT6+   -
Claws and Mandibles   (base contact)   Assault Weapons   Extra Attack (+1), Macro-weapon


One of the extra CC MW was dropped here from the 9.2.1 stats to bring them in line with Carnifex. They differ from the 'fex now in that they don't have fearless but two average shots at close range.

Malefactor

Code:
AV   25cm   4+   4+   5+   Brood, Reinforced Armour, Transport
Frag Spines   15cm   2x AP5+   -
Arms   (base contact)   Assault Weapons   Extra Attack (+1), Macro-weapon

Notes: Transport (One Tyranid Warriors or Raveners unit, or two of the following units: Genestealers, Termagants or Hormagaunts)


The transport is staying for these guys. I'm more interested in preserving the existing fluff then trying to keep to design principles that are nearly ten years old for a list that was never published. The great FF was a good way to differentiate the unit when it didn't have transport in 9.2.1 but none of the stats for SM/TL or 40k justify it. The shots and FF have been backed down to put them more in line with what we have to go by.

Dactylis

Code:
AV   15cm   4+   4+   5+   Brood, Reinforced Armour
Bile Pods   45cm   1BP   Disrupt, Indirect Fire


I want to try the move reduction here to see how it affects the game given that they can garrison. They were slow in SM/TL and slow in the LoB stats so I think it's justified, but if the garrison option proves too good we'll bump them back up to 20cm to prevent that. Being artillery it's not likely that they'll move anyway.

Exocrine

Code:
AV   15cm   4+   4+   4+   Brood, Reinforced Armour
Exocrine Bio-Cannon   45cm   2x AP4+/AT5+   -


Same on the speed here as with the Dactylis. Given the save modifier from SM/TL and the stats in 40k I think the MW on the Bio-cannon fits. We tested them with the above stats but with FF4+ around 12 times. That proved a little too good so I'm looking to try them at FF5+ now.

_________________
Dave

Blog

NetEA Tournament Pack Website

Squats 2018-05-15


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 24 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net