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[Xeno-Biostatistics] Big Brood - Cs, Bs, Zs and their like

 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Big Brood - Cs, Bs, Zs and their li
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 11:42 pm 
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Another concern I have with two lists and adding new stuff all the time is that eventually the 'new' list will be chosen more often than the old list because it's got all the new toys and more utility. e.g only ... if the Venomthrope giving AV/-1 cover is only available to new list it gives players needing/wanting the AV to-hit modifier reasoning to only choose the new list as it's not available in the old one....

Just some food for thought on splitting the list. I know it'll be ignored anyway :D


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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Big Brood - Cs, Bs, Zs and their li
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 7:38 am 
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I don't have a problem with the two lists not being exactly equally popular.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Big Brood - Cs, Bs, Zs and their li
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 11:06 am 
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Dobbsy wrote:
Another concern I have with two lists and adding new stuff all the time is that eventually the 'new' list will be chosen more often than the old list because it's got all the new toys and more utility. e.g only ... if the Venomthrope giving AV/-1 cover is only available to new list it gives players needing/wanting the AV to-hit modifier reasoning to only choose the new list as it's not available in the old one....


Right now I'd say the old lists are played more than the new by a factor of about 2:1, purely due to model availability. Yes each list will have tools the other doesn't, but that's a good thing.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Big Brood - Cs, Bs, Zs and their li
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 2:30 pm 
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OK, stat time.

Carnifex

Code:
AV   20cm   4+   3+   5+   Brood, Fearless, Reinforced Armour
Bio-plasma   (15cm)   Small Arms   -
Large Scything Talons   (base contact)   Assault Weapons   Extra Attack (+1), Macro-weapon


Zombo and I talked about the move and I'm going to go with 20cm here given that you can make them faster in 40k5e and they were faster in 2e. So just try and ignore all the stuff that came between that :P. They've gone to 4+RA to be on par with the Tyrant.

Devourer Carnifex

Code:
AV   20cm   4+   4+   3+   Brood, Fearless, Reinforced Armour
2x Twin Devourer   15cm   AP3+


Let me know if I got these right Zombo.

Barbed Carnifex

Code:
AV   20cm   4+   5+   4+   Brood, Fearless, Reinforced Armour
Heavy Venom Cannon   30cm   AP4+/AT5+   -
Stranglethorn Cannon   30cm   AP4+   Disrupt


These too.

Onachus Zoanthrope

Code:
LV   15cm   4+   6+   5+   Brood, Invulnerable Save
Warp Blast   30cm   AP5+   -
   and   (15cm)   Small Arms   Macro-weapon


Its save was changed to reflect its invulnerable save in 40k and how close it's close to a SM Attack bike in 40k stat-wise. The Warp Blast was given a 30cm shot as it was fairly long ranged in SM/TL and it's an assault 24" weapon in 40k, rather than a rapid fire or heavy (so it was bumped from the usually 15cm). The FF stayed as it, as its warp lance is close to what a multi-melta (FF5+MW) is in 40k.

Leviathan Zoanthrope

Code:
LV   15cm   4+   6+   5+   Invulnerable Save, Jump Pack, Invulnerable Save
Warp Blast   30cm   AP5+   -
   and   (15cm)   Small Arms   Macro-weapon


Pretty much the same as the Onachus version, just with Synapse instead of Brood. It was given Jump Pack to represent the floating. Yes, it doesn't float high but it can still float over things like lava and rivers.

Venomthrope

Code:
LV   15cm   6+   4+   -   Brood, Jump Pack, (see below)
Toxic Miasma   (base contact)   Assault Weapons   Ignore Cover

Notes: Up to two friendly light vehicle or infantry units in base to base contact with the Venomthrope, and the Venomthrope itself, may claim a 5+ cover save and the -1 to hit modifier for being in cover (see EA 1.8.3).


The above stats are an attempt to make them more then just another CC beast. With them being classed as LVs a unit note would have been needed anyway to have them count as AVs to grant INF concealment so I just took it to the next level: they are mobile cover. Definitely something that will need testing but it also makes them pretty unique.

Biovore

Code:
LV   15cm   6+   6+   5+   Brood
Spore Mines   30cm   AP5+/AT6+   Disrupt, Indirect Fire


These saw an armor decrease to reflect their 40k-stats and a FF increase as their shot is the equivalent of a multi-laser in EA (FF5+). Disrupt is staying as it just "feels right" plus I didn't see any objections to it.

Pyrovore

Code:
LV   15cm   6+   5+   5+   Brood
Flamespurt   15cm   AP4+   Ignore Cover
   and   (15cm)   Small Arms   Ignore Cover


Same stats as the Biovore but with a CC increase to reflect their acid-maw and a weapon swap.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Big Brood - Cs, Bs, Zs and their li
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 3:09 pm 
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Scythed Canrifex:
Ok.

Devourer Canrifex:
One set of Twin Devourers with Brainworms could be even 2 x AP4+ each. But making two sets only 2 x shots andbut AP3+ should be appropiate too :)

Barbed Carnifex:
I don`t think the Heavy Venom Cannon deserves AT5+. Yes it`s Strength is identical to a Lascannon but it suffers a -1 on the vehicle damage table unless it is open-topped (LV in Epic). But it is really good in taking out average armoured Infantry. AP4+/AT6+ or even AP3+/AT6+ is more justified.

The Stranglethorn Cannon really is a Multi-laser with Disrupt (30cm AP5+/AT6+ Disrupt).

Onachus Zoanthrope:
Ok.

Leviathan Zoanthrope:
Ok but Jumppacks isn`t justified. In Wh40k it don`t has any special ability that it allows to cross lava, rivers, etc more easily than foot-sloggers. The floating is just a visual thing not any real movement enhancement.

Venomthrope:
Ok but making it AV would reduce the Notes section.

Biovore:
Ok.

Pyrovore:
As much as i would like that every unit with a flame-type weapon would receive Ignore Cove ron it`s basic FF attack no unit currently has it. So i would remove it. Ignore Cover only for the Flamespurt shot but FF4+.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Big Brood - Cs, Bs, Zs and their li
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 3:14 pm 
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The Salamander Command had IC on its FF last time I checked.

I'll let Zombo respond to the rest as their his stats, but I don't agree with your accessment of the Stranglthorn's AT. It's a single shot at S6, a small blast isn't going to make it anymore devastating to tanks in 40k so I'm not sure why you think it should in EA.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Big Brood - Cs, Bs, Zs and their li
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 4:19 pm 
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Stats look very good. I welcome the move towards 20 cm movement as a basic Tyranid feature. I think it will add a lot to gameplay.

Venomthrope is a little messy, but with a unique touch to it. No way they could be AV, so this is probably the right way to go.

Keep up the good work, we're almost there.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Big Brood - Cs, Bs, Zs and their li
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:43 pm 
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Dave wrote:
The Salamander Command had IC on its FF last time I checked.

I'll let Zombo respond to the rest as their his stats, but I don't agree with your accessment of the Stranglthorn's AT. It's a single shot at S6, a small blast isn't going to make it anymore devastating to tanks in 40k so I'm not sure why you think it should in EA.

Ok i`m not that familiar with the Minervans army list. At least no rulebook and no Swordwind unit with a single flamey weapon has IC on the basic FF attack.

On the Thrangelthorn: S6 is just enough to destroy a lightly armoured vehicle in Wh40k (Armour 10) or at least damage almost any transporter (usually Armour 11 on front, 10 rear and sides).
With the template you shot can deviate a bit but can still have the vehicle under the center of the template.
With 3 individual shots (Multi-laser) you have statistically one hit.
So i guess the odds are roughly the same for 3 shots or a 3" template to actually damage a (light armoured) vehicle.

But wel. No AT value on the Thranglethorn isn`t the end of the world for me :D

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Big Brood - Cs, Bs, Zs and their li
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:11 pm 
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BlackLegion wrote:

Pyrovore:
As much as i would like that every unit with a flame-type weapon would receive Ignore Cove ron it`s basic FF attack no unit currently has it. So i would remove it. Ignore Cover only for the Flamespurt shot but FF4+.



BlackLegion wrote:
Dave wrote:
The Salamander Command had IC on its FF last time I checked.

Ok i`m not that familiar with the Minervans army list. At least no rulebook and no Swordwind unit with a single flamey weapon has IC on the basic FF attack.


DKoK engineers and baran siege master's sappers have IC FF too (not in swordwind though like you mention, it's a netEA thing ;) ).


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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Big Brood - Cs, Bs, Zs and their li
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:09 pm 
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Then i advocat to give every other unit which doesn`t already have it IC on the basic FF attack if it is armed with a flame-like weapon.
I like consistency.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Big Brood - Cs, Bs, Zs and their li
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:24 pm 
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Borka wrote:
DKoK engineers and baran siege master's sappers have IC FF too (not in swordwind though like you mention, it's a netEA thing ;) ).

DKoK Engineers are armed with the Mole-Mortars, it's the Grenadiers that have Heavy Flamers but they don't have ignore cover FF (I just checked).


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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Big Brood - Cs, Bs, Zs and their li
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:35 pm 
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Just for the record: In the Salamanders Space Marine army list only units with TWO flamey weapons get IC on their basic FF attack.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Big Brood - Cs, Bs, Zs and their li
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:23 pm 
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Keep in mind that the IC in Firefight is going to be a result not just of the weapon, but the doctrine with which it is used. It is entirely understandable that units which deploy those flamers in a different manner could get a differernt result.


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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Big Brood - Cs, Bs, Zs and their li
PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:32 am 
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GlynG wrote:
Borka wrote:
DKoK engineers and baran siege master's sappers have IC FF too (not in swordwind though like you mention, it's a netEA thing ;) ).

DKoK Engineers are armed with the Mole-Mortars, it's the Grenadiers that have Heavy Flamers but they don't have ignore cover FF (I just checked).


Yeah you're right I ment the Grenadiers, but they actually do have IC FF in the netEA 2010 draft document found in this thread. That might of course differ from the siege compendium and I don't know which would take precedence. :)


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