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[Xeno-Biostatistics] Independent Vanguard - Ls, GSs and BL

 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Independent Vanguard - Ls, GSs and
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 4:43 pm 
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I'd rather save that as an option if playtesting shows they're still under-valued. Nothing's written in stone, let's get some playtests in before we start second guessing stats.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Independent Vanguard - Ls, GSs and
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:40 pm 
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Fredmans: It isn't any more complicated than terminators having a non-macro and a macro CC attack. Tactical dieing can lead to attacks being wasted in that case as well.


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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Independent Vanguard - Ls, GSs and
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 6:00 pm 
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Terminators won`t loose their MW attack if they destroy the only unit in base contact. Only if the regular attacks destroy every enemy unit within a 15cm radius the MW attack is wasted.
The MW attack would only be wasted if the Terminator would have First-Strike on his regular attack.

First-Strike is an extra attack for the unit. Only after this is solved and casualties are removed the regular attacking order sets in where all attacks are simultanious.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Independent Vanguard - Ls, GSs and
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 6:29 pm 
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Agreed, 2 attack with only 1FS won't work out well. Granted with infiltrator you'd be able to base two stands per stealer but the defender has free choice of which units they remove, and can still deny you regular CC to-hit rolls.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Independent Vanguard - Ls, GSs and
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 6:32 pm 
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Rough riders have 2 cc attacks, only one of which is first strike. I dont remember any opponents collapsing to the ground with brain anyurisms trying to work of those engagements.


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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Independent Vanguard - Ls, GSs and
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 6:36 pm 
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I think the point people are arguing is that it's a harsh downgrade, not that it's difficult to resolve. Kill everything in BtB with your FS and you don't get your regular attacks.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Independent Vanguard - Ls, GSs and
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:16 pm 
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Is Leviathan still going to be Zombocoms list?

I ask because there are going to be a few diagreements along these lines where the result is likely to be the same stats but reduced points where the list writers personal experience makes an alteration based on relative merit to what they cost before.

Potentially you may see Genestealers going to 8 for 150pts and Lictors to 5 for 150pts as a starting point, as there are some differences in play groups experience I wouldn't count on playtesting within the play group to pick up any problems. That's a bridge for the future though.


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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Independent Vanguard - Ls, GSs and
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:47 pm 
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Internal balance issues can swing point costs within variant lists. My plan is to setup a loose structure for the lists to adhere to and let people adjust the points to balance things out.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Independent Vanguard - Ls, GSs and
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 11:01 pm 
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I'd much rather individual list developers were freer to decide their own structure, but with set unit stats and special rules.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Independent Vanguard - Ls, GSs and
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 11:04 pm 
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Dave wrote:
I'd rather save that as an option if playtesting shows they're still under-valued. Nothing's written in stone, let's get some playtests in before we start second guessing stats.


Sorry, but why? You're effectively throwing out all the playtesting other lists have done and going with what you playtested. Yes, people agree that they need a downgrade, but 1xCC2+ meets all your criteria as mention in your previous post; it's not multiple FS attacks, and gives the feel of a targeted assassin. I really think it's a reasonable compromise.

Why HALVE their attacks when there are intervening steps you can take? That's throwing out the 3+ years of 9.2.1 playtesting.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Independent Vanguard - Ls, GSs and
PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 3:15 pm 
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Can I get an answer to my previous points?

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Independent Vanguard - Ls, GSs and
PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 3:21 pm 
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I'd much rather individual list developers were freer to decide their own structure,

Am I right in assuming that we're going to continue with 3-5 different lists being developed?

I thought that the point of putting in a new champion was to focus development on 2 lists (new & old), absorb any good ideas from the 5+ variant lists and then cease development on them?

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Independent Vanguard - Ls, GSs and
PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 3:27 pm 
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I don't see it as throwing out 3+ years of playtests, I'm utilizing them to make the decision. There's around 95 'nid playtests in the EA batrep section on the forums, half of which I posted. Given what I've seen they're overpowered, hence the attack reduction.

You might think its too drastic but I'd rather start low and work up then start high and work down. There's always more resistance with the latter than the former here.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Independent Vanguard - Ls, GSs and
PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 3:37 pm 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
Quote:
I'd much rather individual list developers were freer to decide their own structure,

Am I right in assuming that we're going to continue with 3-5 different lists being developed?

I thought that the point of putting in a new champion was to focus development on 2 lists (new & old), absorb any good ideas from the 5+ variant lists and then cease development on them?


That's not exactly the aim.

The main aim is to ensure that all the lists are consistent in stats and special rules. There will be 2 core lists developed initially, but if other developers feel their lists have enough of a USP to continue development under the new rules and stats, they're welcome to.

I can certainly see that other varient lists can have a place for development, such as a Bio-Titan list.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Independent Vanguard - Ls, GSs and
PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 3:39 pm 
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Dave wrote:
I don't see it as throwing out 3+ years of playtests, I'm utilizing them to make the decision. There's around 95 'nid playtests in the EA batrep section on the forums, half of which I posted. Given what I've seen they're overpowered, hence the attack reduction.

You might think its too drastic but I'd rather start low and work up then start high and work down. There's always more resistance with the latter than the former here.


I do think it's too drastic, recklessly so. Please start at CC2+ and drop again if neccessary, or I guarantee you'll find yourself having to bump them immediately back up in the next version.

CC2+ is already 2 "rungs" below where they were in 9.2.1.

At CC3+ I'll be forced to either increase the formation size or decrease the cost to make them worthwhile taking.

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