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[Xeno-Biostatistics] Independent Vanguard - Ls, GSs and BL

 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Independent Vanguard - Ls, GSs and
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:53 am 
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Quote:
2) it is not, in general, somehow less 'reliable'

Totally agreed. The stats above bear that out.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Independent Vanguard - Ls, GSs and
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:55 am 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
It's not. You might as well say that the situation where the different is larger is equally common to the situation where the difference is smaller.


What's your argument then. Apart from "it's not".


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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Independent Vanguard - Ls, GSs and
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:58 am 
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Ulrik wrote:
Evil and Chaos wrote:
It's not. You might as well say that the situation where the different is larger is equally common to the situation where the difference is smaller.


What's your argument then. Apart from "it's not".

My argument is that you're getting lost in a specific sub-set of the stats when really you need to look at the broader picture.

And it's all academic, because Dave is insisting on pushing through the downgrade, so who cares?

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Independent Vanguard - Ls, GSs and
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:06 am 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
My argument is that you're getting lost in a specific sub-set of the stats when really you need to look at the broader picture.


But slavishly balancing around the "average" is not looking at the broader picture.

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And it's all academic, because Dave is insisting on pushing through the downgrade, so who cares?


Dunno. I did point out (in my second post, I admit) that his premise that 2+ was actually better is wrong.


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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Independent Vanguard - Ls, GSs and
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:15 am 
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But slavishly balancing around the "average" is not looking at the broader picture.

It's a more useful metric than looking at one side of a bell curve under restricted circumstances.

Especially as getting unit stats right is more often an art than a science.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Independent Vanguard - Ls, GSs and
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:25 am 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
It's a more useful metric than looking at one side of a bell curve under restricted circumstances.

Especially as getting unit stats right is more often an art than a science.


My argument for that is that you need to look at both - the average, the upper end and the lower end, and consider what is more important. For an attacking, enganging formation (like stealers) the lower end is important, as you would set it up so that you win on average rolls. For a defensive formation, the upper end is important as it says something about the odds of your opponent's assault blowing up in his face. The upper end is also important for when you rely on the potential of the formation to deterr your opponent (like the old Pulse rules, where the opponent had to account for the potential for 12+ AT hits if he gave Falcons a chance to sustain, even though the average was something like 5).


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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Independent Vanguard - Ls, GSs and
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:31 am 
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My argument for that is that you need to look at both - the average, the upper end and the lower end, and consider what is more important. For an attacking, enganging formation (like stealers) the lower end is important, as you would set it up so that you win on average rolls.

Considering there's only a very small difference in reliability between 2+ and 2x4+, you should probably use the average then. :-P

Ultimately as I've said statting units is more art than science; You shouldn't get lost in maths as "that way lies madness"*.


*To quote the guy who wrote them game, in reference to statting up Tyranid units.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Independent Vanguard - Ls, GSs and
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:35 am 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
Ultimately as I've said statting units is more art than science; You shouldn't get lost in maths as "that way lies madness"*.


True, true. But you're also pretty hung up on the "downgrade" :)


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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Independent Vanguard - Ls, GSs and
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:36 am 
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Ulrik wrote:
Evil and Chaos wrote:
Ultimately as I've said statting units is more art than science; You shouldn't get lost in maths as "that way lies madness"*.


True, true. But you're also pretty hung up on the "downgrade" :)

That's because Genestealers are already fairly rubbish, and they're getting significantly downgraded. No maths needed to communicate that.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Independent Vanguard - Ls, GSs and
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:50 am 
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I think we can wrap the genestealer maths discussion up, or at least move it to another thread. The AC's made his call and isn't going to change his mind.


However, I'd still like an answer from Dave as to why Lictors need to have their attacks halved rather than a smaller decrease...

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Independent Vanguard - Ls, GSs and
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 2:00 pm 
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To put it simply, we found that the possibility of two hits per unit with first strike too good. The current CC stats still make them a terror, we've played them enough to see that. Given they now has FS on their FF and a bigger engage range they'll have even more utility then what we played them with.

It's a single creature. Given what it could do in previous editions of Epic and 40k allowing it to take out two rhinos or 10 marines before they can react is a little over the top. They're precision ambush creatures used to take out high priority targets, not squads of infantry all by their lonesome.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Independent Vanguard - Ls, GSs and
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 3:17 pm 
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EUK have lictors as inf. So does leviathan. Making them LV is not good IMO.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Independent Vanguard - Ls, GSs and
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 4:02 pm 
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If your problem with lictors and stealers is the 2x FS attacks. Why didn't you move first strike from the unit notes and add it to the weapon notes. This would have made more sense to us than removing an attack from a unit that we (zombo, E&C and I) already consider underpowered.


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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Independent Vanguard - Ls, GSs and
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 4:13 pm 
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Jstr19 wrote:
If your problem with lictors and stealers is the 2x FS attacks. Why didn't you move first strike from the unit notes and add it to the weapon notes. This would have made more sense to us than removing an attack from a unit that we (zombo, E&C and I) already consider underpowered.


Probably because it complicates the flow of assault resolution to have a mix of FS and non-FS attacks. If the victim dies, the other attack would vanish, unless you give it a FF attack as well.

/Fredmans


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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Independent Vanguard - Ls, GSs and
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2011 4:16 pm 
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Dave: can we compromise on cc2+ for the lictors then? It gets rid of your problem with multiple fs attacks without being such a crippling downgrade. Plus cc2+ really fits the precision assassin mold

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