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[Xeno-Biostatistics] Expendable Brood - Ts, Hs, Gs and Rs

 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Expendable Brood - Ts, Hs, Gs and R
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:10 pm 
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zombocom wrote:
Dave wrote:
Hormagaunts


Right now, in 9.2.1 and most other lists, hormagaunts are 2xCC5+. They still get taken less than termagants. If we drop them to 1xCC4+ I'd personally never see any point in taking them over terms or raveners. The reason they were moved to 2xCC5+ from 1xCC4+ in 9.2 was because noone was taking them over termagants. It was well discussed and agreed at the time, and that situation hasn't changed at all.

As Dave mentions, when writing Onachus he thought Horms were 1xCC5+ and though he was improving them to 4+. In fact he was accidentally decreasing their effectiveness.

Have we seen battle reports where Horms at their current stats are dominating? I haven't, so why the need for the downgrade?


Agreed, it's clear the Dave made a mistake and is just evolving onwards from that mistake now.

Having played Tyranids extensively over the last 5 or so years, I can say that CC4+ Hormagaunts are quite simply not worth as much as FF5+ Termagants.

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Dave wrote:
Another thing to note is that Gargoyles were armed with Flamespurts in SM/TL and 40k2e, and that's actually what the models are armed with. These were effectively flamers and granted them the ability to ignore cover. Again, thoughts?


It's very important to me that they don't get flamespurts and ignore cover FF. In the newer versions of the lists, they don't have access to that weapon, so if we want the units to be usable for both old and new style lists we can't go giving them weapons that don't work for one or the other.

Flamespurts haven't existed in the background for 20 years.

Don't do it.

Quote:
Dave wrote:
Raveners
For their CC, 3 of them can pump out 12 attacks with the ability to reroll ones. That puts them somewhere between 5 assaults marines (10 attacks at S4 WS4) and 5 Bezerkers (15 attacks at S4 WS5). I think CC2+ is warranted here, not 2@CC4+ (5 nobz have 20 attacks at S4 WS4).


I'm in favour of 2xCC4+, for a simple reason; incremental change. In 9.2.1 they were 2xCC3+, and widely considered to be too good. Good list design tells us we should incrementally change things, and the next level down from 2xCC3+ is 2xCC4+. 1xCC2+ is the next level down after that, and I'm not convinced they need that much of a downgrade. Drop them one step at a time, and if playtesting shows they need more, then drop them again.

Bear in mind that we've cut their FF entirely, so that's already another downgrade on them. Let's drop their power slowly; it's the right way to find the right level.

Again, agreed with Zombo here.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Expendable Brood - Ts, Hs, Gs and R
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 9:02 pm 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:

Having played Tyranids extensively over the last 5 or so years, I can say that CC4+ Hormagaunts are quite simply not worth as much as FF5+ Termagants.


Which is exactly why they were changed to 2x5+.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Expendable Brood - Ts, Hs, Gs and R
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 11:40 pm 
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Dave

Note that these opinions are worth exactly what you paid for them. :)

Quote:
Termagants


Sounds good. :)

Quote:
Hormagaunts


2x 5+ or 1 x 4+ both sound fine, IMO. 2x5 seems a little good for what are, after all, expendable grunts, but if it's needed to balance them with Termagaunts, then it's needed.

Quote:
Gargoyles


I'd lean toward Fleshborers over flamespurts, both due to the oldness and due to the fact that it'd really seem to change how they operated. Alternately, mix them: mostly fleshborers, with one flamespurt attack.

The idea of them ramming air vehicles seems kind of neat. The idea of them shooting air vehicles down with a swarm of beetles seems...ridiculous. I'd either bring back the 'lose a unit' or drop the AA attack altogether.

My impression is Gargoyles don't land much - would they make more sense as mounted skimmers than as Infantry with Jump Packs?

Quote:
Raveners


I'd concur on CC2+ over 2xCC4+, though that's just from 'feel' rather than from any particular impression of their power.

A decrease in their CC power might help make Hormagaunts more attractive, too.

Quote:
On FF, Zombo and I agreed that giving them FF would pretty much make them the superior choice over termagants and hormagaunts. Given that they don't come with weapons by default in 40k we were looking at removing their FF ability rather than making them the "super expendable brood".


True. OTOH, their visual inspiration (the Hydralisk) does, and my impression is that it's a fairly popular choice (heck, the default illustration has them armed). Plus, without the FF ability, they're still the "super-Hormagaunt". Being the costly brood that can do what both the other broods can (though at a cost) is a more distinct niche, IMO, than super-Hormagaunts. Otherwise it's just a choice between a few slightly better guys or many slightly inferior guys.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Expendable Brood - Ts, Hs, Gs and R
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 7:52 pm 
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I've always found it slightly odd that Raveners are in the group of 'common' creatures. They're nowhere near as numerous as gaunts so why are they there? Surely it would be better to make them super hormagaunts and push them out into the rarer units rather than trying to limit their stats to fit in with gaunts.


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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Expendable Brood - Ts, Hs, Gs and R
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:49 pm 
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arkturas wrote:
I've always found it slightly odd that Raveners are in the group of 'common' creatures. They're nowhere near as numerous as gaunts so why are they there? Surely it would be better to make them super hormagaunts and push them out into the rarer units rather than trying to limit their stats to fit in with gaunts.


I'm with arkturas on this. If Raveners are included as common creatures they will always be the defacto CC choice and Gaunts will be chosed for FF.


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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Expendable Brood - Ts, Hs, Gs and R
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:18 pm 
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I agree. For every single Ravener you get 5 Hormagaunts and 5 Termagants so they should be uncommon.
Raveners are something like super-Gaunts possessing the best abilities of both types. So a Infantry unit with the FF of Termagants and CC of Hormagaunts and better armour. Surely they should cost something close to twice as much as a Gaunt unit.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Expendable Brood - Ts, Hs, Gs and R
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 8:02 pm 
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BlackLegion wrote:
I agree. For every single Ravener you get 5 Hormagaunts and 5 Termagants so they should be uncommon.
Raveners are something like super-Gaunts possessing the best abilities of both types. So a Infantry unit with the FF of Termagants and CC of Hormagaunts and better armour. Surely they should cost something close to twice as much as a Gaunt unit.


With the further caveat that they are not 'common'.

Decide what the stats of the Ravener should be and only then decide which bucket they go in. My feeling is that they should not compete with gaunts as core building blocks of the Tyranid list (so not in the 'common brood' section of the 9.2.1 style of army building). The basis of the horde should be gaunts and gargoyles.


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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Expendable Brood - Ts, Hs, Gs and R
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 2:40 pm 
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Alright, It's been a week so I wanted to recap and post the stats that will be going into the next 'nid list. To reiterate, I can't make everyone happy. If you disagree with something then provide some playtests once the list is out.

Termagants

Code:
INF   20cm   -   6+   5+   Brood, Expendable
Fleshborers   (15cm)   Small Arms   -


The gaunt rule is getting dropped here but otherwise these are the 9.2.1 stats. There weren't any contrary opinions and it looks good to Zombo and I so we'll go with it.

Hormagaunts

Code:
INF   20cm   -   4+   -   Brood, Expendable, Infiltrators
Scything Talons   (base contact)   Assault Weapons   -


The gaunt rule is getting dropped here, they're pretty much the 9.1 stats. The argument that no one takes them at these stats is butting up against my experience with them in Onachus and 9.1. I've taken them in both lists and felt I've gotten what I needed out of them (basing two high FF low CC enemies in assault).

I've gone back and looked at the old 9.1 threads and haven't found any posts calling for an increase in their CC. Once they were changed in 9.2 people chimed in with the "yes, they needed a bump" posts but I didn't see anyone calling for it before hand. In general I think stat increases garner wider acceptance than decreases so if playtests are showing they're too weak then we can readdress this.

However, 2@5+ is so marginally better than 1@4+ (a 55.56& chance on average to get 1 hit, and a 11.11% change to get two over half a chance for 1 hit) I find it hard to believe that it will be some great equalizer for the Hormagaunt in comparison to the Termagant. More likely, a price decrease is needed for Hormagaunts. I feel they're fine where they are but like I said playtests can change my mind.

Gargoyles

Code:
INF   30cm   -   6+   5+   Brood, Expendable, Jump Packs
Flamespurts/Fleshborers   15cm   AA6+   -


Whether we name their weapons Flamespurts or Fleshborers it is going to make little difference game-wise, it's purely aesthetic. So feel free to call them either. No Flameborers or Fleshspurts (ewwwwww) though. If people aren't a fan of that then we'll just call the attack Swarm Strike again or something similar.

While Flamespurts should grant IC I'd rather not have these guys have separate old/new stats so I've kept it off for that and for the fact that they've got a lot going for them over the two gaunts already.

The AA is staying for the time being, but the note about the unit being removed for it hitting isn't coming back. Ya it's fun but I don't think it adds a whole lot to the game beyond reducing the army's poor AA even further.

Raveners

Code:
INF   20cm   5+   4+   -   Brood, Expendable, Infiltrators, Tunnelers
Twin Scything Talons   (base contact)   Assault Weapons   Extra Attack (+1)


While I'd like to keep the number of attacks down for these guys to reduce the variance I don't have much in-game experience with them. Given that, I don't really have much of an argument so 2@4+ it is. Zombo and I both agreed to dropping the FF though so they're not just a super-Hormagaunt rolled up with a Termagant that has a save and that can Tunnel.

I'm naming their weapons Twin Scything Talons however to differentiate them from Scything Talons (which don't provide the EA).

As to the arguments on their numbers within the swarms, I agree that they shouldn't be as common as the two gaunts. However I think that's the realm of army list discussion.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Expendable Brood - Ts, Hs, Gs and R
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 2:57 pm 
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I count one person besides Dave in favour of changing the CC rating of Hormagaunts from 5+ (with 2 attacks) to 4+ (one attack).

And yet they're getting a downgrade?
When even with 2x 5+ attacks most consider them to be slightly inferior to Termagants anyway?

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Last edited by Evil and Chaos on Mon Oct 24, 2011 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Expendable Brood - Ts, Hs, Gs and R
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 2:58 pm 
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I still don't see the need for the downgrade in hormagaunt stats, but I think these are good compromise stats to work with for now.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Expendable Brood - Ts, Hs, Gs and R
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 3:38 pm 
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Yes. I list design you can always make Hormagaunts cheaper than Termagants.
I would lean towards FF6+ for Raveners though.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Expendable Brood - Ts, Hs, Gs and R
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 4:08 pm 
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Quote:
Zombo and I both agreed to dropping the FF though so they're not just a super-Hormagaunt rolled up with a Termagant that has a save and that can Tunnel.


So instead they're just a super-Hormagaunt that has a save and can Tunnel?

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Expendable Brood - Ts, Hs, Gs and R
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 4:18 pm 
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Pretty much, Expendable might go as that was more of a carry over from Jaldon than my preferece. Not sure how Zombo feels on it. Like I said, I haven't had too many games with them (half a dozen maybe?) so I'm relying on other people's experience with them and the playtests.

Their niche is (at the moment) is heavy (when compared to hormagaunts) CC troops and Trygon INF support.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Expendable Brood - Ts, Hs, Gs and R
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2011 6:09 pm 
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Simulated Knave wrote:
Quote:
Zombo and I both agreed to dropping the FF though so they're not just a super-Hormagaunt rolled up with a Termagant that has a save and that can Tunnel.


So instead they're just a super-Hormagaunt that has a save and can Tunnel?


Shrug. That's their role in 40k too, they're the elite CC infantry unit effectively.

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