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[Xeno-Biostatistics] Expendable Brood - Ts, Hs, Gs and Rs

 Post subject: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Expendable Brood - Ts, Hs, Gs and Rs
PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 4:57 am 
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Alright, the first group I'm dubbing "Expendable Brood". All of these guys will have expendable (namely they won't generate BMs when removed from plays, hit by disrupt, removed from crossfire, etc); as well as brood (they can be returned to play via spawning).

Termagants

These guys have the stat lines of Guardsmen in 40k (no save, CC6+), what are effectively Bolt Pistols (FF5+) and are fleet (bump to move). Given that I think the stats they have fit the bill.

On the 1/2 casualties note for them and Hormagaunts, they didn't have this in 9.1 or in any of the Onachus versions where the playtests I had were somewhere around the 50-50 split. When this was added in 9.2.1 I never lost a game.

I play expendable brood heavy lists and this boon is definitely too much of a crutch in assaults. In my 9.2.1 games I didn't feel the need to prep formations I was assaulting with a BM nor did I have to worry about support much at all. In short, it made engaging too easy, the bugs can win without this.

Hormagaunts

The current stats in 40k have them as Guardsmen with two HtH weapons (no save, CC5+) fleet (bump to move) and a leaping special rule while in SM/TL they had a charge special rule (both point towards infiltrator). CC5+ isn't enough of a bonus to make them worth taking over Termagants however. Looking further back in 40k editions they were the equivalent of Dire Avengers with two HtH weapons (CC4+) which is where I'd like to put them. From our discussions Zombo's in favor of 2@CC5+, so discuss.

I'll note that I actually never saw the EA +1 in 9.2 and 9.2.1, and played them 1@CC5+. They are 1@CC4+ in Onachus and 9.1 and I still take them to expand a swarm's engagement range and lock down good FF units in CC (what really makes them worth it in my opinion). 2@CC5+ is slightly better on average but adds more variance which I'm not keen on.

Gargoyles

Gargoyles have the stats of a guardsmen (no save, CC6+) along with fleshboreres in the current 40k edition (FF5+) and wings which are effectively jump packs (move of 30cm and jump packs).

The AA attack was intended to give the 'nids some token AA. In the past an AA attack that hit removed the shooting unit but this has been dropped since 9.1. Thoughts on this?

Another thing to note is that Gargoyles were armed with Flamespurts in SM/TL and 40k2e, and that's actually what the models are armed with. These were effectively flamers and granted them the ability to ignore cover. Again, thoughts?

Raveners

Currently Raveners must be taken in squads of at least three in 40k, which points to infantry over light vehicles. Usually a save of 5+ in 40k doesn't translate into an armor value in EA but they do have 3 wounds each with a toughness of 4. That puts them at nearly twice as hard to kill as 5 orks. Given that I'd say armor 5+ is pretty close.

For their CC, 3 of them can pump out 12 attacks with the ability to reroll ones. That puts them somewhere between 5 assaults marines (10 attacks at S4 WS4) and 5 Bezerkers (15 attacks at S4 WS5). I think CC2+ is warranted here, not 2@CC4+ (5 nobz have 20 attacks at S4 WS4).

On the move, they're rated as beasts like Rough Riders so 20cm infiltrators seems right. Plus they have a deep strike option so I think tunneler is warranted here.

On FF, Zombo and I agreed that giving them FF would pretty much make them the superior choice over termagants and hormagaunts. Given that they don't come with weapons by default in 40k we were looking at removing their FF ability rather than making them the "super expendable brood".

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Expendable Brood - Ts, Hs, Gs and R
PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 7:42 am 
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Quote:
Hormagaunts
Looking further back in 40k editions they were the equivalent of Dire Avengers with two HtH weapons (CC4+) which is where I'd like to put them. From our discussions Zombo's in favor of 2@CC5+, so discuss.

I would prefer the 4+ rather than the 2x5+ for two reasons:
1. 2x 5+ is better
2. As you have stated, it adds yet more variance - after further testing it could be changed if they need a boost

Quote:
Gargoyles

I like the idea of the AA element of these guys (think of Pitch Black and the scene where they come out of the hives). Ignore Cover on the assault (15cm) would be cool. It will really depend where you price these guys however. If they are to be priced the same (as I did in Tarrasque) you will find that they may already be good enough. Otherwise it would be good, however not if they are priced to high to not allow a 'swarm feel'. Happy to go and test whatever you decide on however.

Quote:
Raveners

2+ is pretty good yet with no FF they could almost be a hinderence so yes, happy to play test them at this as well. We always found them to be too good in 9.2.1 with their FF value.

Great work Dave and Zombo. Keep it going.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Expendable Brood - Ts, Hs, Gs and R
PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 8:02 am 
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Agree with everything FB states. In regards to Gargoyles I'd also add maybe start without ignore cover then add it if they need something.


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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Expendable Brood - Ts, Hs, Gs and R
PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 9:51 am 
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1/2 casualties: This rule was implemented in the context of the 9.2.1, with a bigger restraint on ranged weaponry and a higher Initiative value. I see no need for it in neither Onachus nor Leviathan (Onachus can presently field pure bio-artillery formations and Leviathan has a much more favourable common:uncommon ratio. I see no need for it presently.

Hormagaunts: Speaking from an aesthetic perspective, I favour 2 x 5+ attacks. When I say aesthetic, I mean that it suggest a non-skilled hack-and-slash approach, whereas 1 x 4+ makes it a skilled combat effort (you mention dire avengers yourself). 2 x 5+ is slightly better, but when it comes to numbers, I find myself fielding more termagants than hormagaunts anyway. I spice formations with a few, so that I can boost my engagement range.

Gargoyles: My gut feeling is AA OR Ignore Cover, not both. Design-wise, we are still talking core troops, not specialists. Jump Packs, AA and Ignore Cover is a tad much for me. Choose a specific role, AA or flushing out entrenched enemies, and stick to it. Both have merits.

Raveners: Agrees on the FF argument. I never liked that they were superior to Hormagaunts in CC and equal to Termagants in FF. On the topic of CC2+ OR 2 x 4+, I feel the same as about Hormagaunts. Either way is fine, but I prefer several attacks. I also think these (and warriors) should belong to Infantry.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Expendable Brood - Ts, Hs, Gs and R
PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:01 pm 
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Dave wrote:
Termagants


Yup, their current stats are fine.

Dave wrote:
On the 1/2 casualties note for them and Hormagaunts, they didn't have this in 9.1 or in any of the Onachus versions where the playtests I had were somewhere around the 50-50 split. When this was added in 9.2.1 I never lost a game.


We can do without it for now, reintroduce if playtests prove it neccessary.

Dave wrote:
Hormagaunts


Right now, in 9.2.1 and most other lists, hormagaunts are 2xCC5+. They still get taken less than termagants. If we drop them to 1xCC4+ I'd personally never see any point in taking them over terms or raveners. The reason they were moved to 2xCC5+ from 1xCC4+ in 9.2 was because noone was taking them over termagants. It was well discussed and agreed at the time, and that situation hasn't changed at all.

As Dave mentions, when writing Onachus he thought Horms were 1xCC5+ and though he was improving them to 4+. In fact he was accidentally decreasing their effectiveness.

Have we seen battle reports where Horms at their current stats are dominating? I haven't, so why the need for the downgrade?

Dave wrote:
Gargoyles
The AA attack was intended to give the 'nids some token AA. In the past an AA attack that hit removed the shooting unit but this has been dropped since 9.1. Thoughts on this?


No fixed opinion on this one really, I'm ambivalent.

Dave wrote:
Another thing to note is that Gargoyles were armed with Flamespurts in SM/TL and 40k2e, and that's actually what the models are armed with. These were effectively flamers and granted them the ability to ignore cover. Again, thoughts?


It's very important to me that they don't get flamespurts and ignore cover FF. In the newer versions of the lists, they don't have access to that weapon, so if we want the units to be usable for both old and new style lists we can't go giving them weapons that don't work for one or the other.

Basically, if you give them flamespurts, then they need to be a different unit for the newer style list, and I don't think that's warranted.

Dave wrote:
Raveners
For their CC, 3 of them can pump out 12 attacks with the ability to reroll ones. That puts them somewhere between 5 assaults marines (10 attacks at S4 WS4) and 5 Bezerkers (15 attacks at S4 WS5). I think CC2+ is warranted here, not 2@CC4+ (5 nobz have 20 attacks at S4 WS4).


I'm in favour of 2xCC4+, for a simple reason; incremental change. In 9.2.1 they were 2xCC3+, and widely considered to be too good. Good list design tells us we should incrementally change things, and the next level down from 2xCC3+ is 2xCC4+. 1xCC2+ is the next level down after that, and I'm not convinced they need that much of a downgrade. Drop them one step at a time, and if playtesting shows they need more, then drop them again.

Bear in mind that we've cut their FF entirely, so that's already another downgrade on them. Let's drop their power slowly; it's the right way to find the right level.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Expendable Brood - Ts, Hs, Gs and R
PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:49 pm 
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Basically, if you give them flamespurts, then they need to be a different unit for the newer style list, and I don't think that's warranted.

Sorry to go off-track here but I need to have this clarified in my head ::) Do we really need 2 lists? Can't both new and old minis be used for one list and let the player choose which minis he wants to utilise? I might be missing something here but what is the exact reason for two lists? I mean the vast majority of Nid players will be using old minis. Why not just have one list that everyone can use? Cuts confusion as everyone's on the same page. I recognise the obvious, in that all lists have variants, but is the Nid list that in need of 2 when Nids, by principle, are largely all the same "genus" even though they have slight differences in "species...?"

As it stands, if I want to use my nids they'll be the old minis regardless of which list I use, so....

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Expendable Brood - Ts, Hs, Gs and R
PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:53 pm 
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I like the idea of kamakaze AA gargoyles myself; it reinforces the callous disregard the tyranids have for their little soldier-beasts.


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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Expendable Brood - Ts, Hs, Gs and R
PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:57 pm 
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Dobbsy wrote:
As it stands, if I want to use my nids they'll be the old minis regardless of which list I use, so....


So if there's only one list, how will you use the newer (sorry, latin suffix OCD) geni? Two lists allows you to use either with the same minis.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Expendable Brood - Ts, Hs, Gs and R
PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 1:02 pm 
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Dobbsy wrote:
what is the exact reason for two lists?


9.2.1 is a bloated mess, being mostly old but also including plenty of new.
There's also no space left for any more new unit types, some of which are really quite unique and interesting (especially tervigons and harpies).

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Expendable Brood - Ts, Hs, Gs and R
PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 1:19 pm 
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Dobbsy wrote:
As it stands, if I want to use my nids they'll be the old minis regardless of which list I use, so....


So use the old list and you won't lose out. Those of us who've converted new style creatures like harpies and tervigons etc will use the new list.

Look at it this way; it's easier to balance lists with less units in. Imagine a marine list with all the possible options from all the varient lists in it...

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Expendable Brood - Ts, Hs, Gs and R
PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 1:19 pm 
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So a new list able to use old minis isn't possible? Honestly I don't care about mini names, so my slug tanks could be called anything so long as I can use them. And if I want to mix and match that's possible too. <shrug>


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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Expendable Brood - Ts, Hs, Gs and R
PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 1:21 pm 
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Dobbsy wrote:
So a new list able to use old minis isn't possible?


Sure it's possible; counts-as.

If they were all in one list you wouldn't be able to use the new stuff because the counts-as rule only allows you to proxy with models that aren't in the list (though of course I doubt any opponent would actually disallow it!).

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Expendable Brood - Ts, Hs, Gs and R
PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 1:22 pm 
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Righto


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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Expendable Brood - Ts, Hs, Gs and R
PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 7:01 pm 
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What are the roles of Hormagaunts vs Raveners here? From what I can understand they're both inf, 20cm move, CC only, except the raveners hit harder and have a save. Just a points difference?


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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] Expendable Brood - Ts, Hs, Gs and R
PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 7:03 pm 
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Raveners can also tunnel if they're with a trygon. But yes, Raveners are basically just super Hormagaunts, and cost more.

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