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[Xeno-Biostatistics] The Plan/What to Stat

 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] The Plan/What to Stat
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 11:47 pm 
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Angel_of_Caliban wrote:
That's your opinion but I can clearly see Core lists in other Races. Plus I don't think you can have "Variant" list with some kinda of "Core" or "Main" thing? They just be different lists right? And then they could do whatever they wanted?


What's the Eldar core list? Chaos? IG even?


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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] The Plan/What to Stat
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 12:18 am 
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Dave wrote:
I'll add the Vituperator and Hiveship, the Hydraphant is just a renamed Hierophant so he's up there.

may be a silly q however what replaced the hierophant then?

Just want to be able to use all my models.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] The Plan/What to Stat
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 12:18 am 
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Dobbsy wrote:
b/ What's it matter if Zoanthrope A walks and B flies...? They still do the same thing.


They don't do the same thing. The new style ones are synapse creatures, and hover. The old ones aren't.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] The Plan/What to Stat
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 12:26 am 
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current FW/40k Hierophants are what Epic Hierodules once where. with Hierodules dropping lower scale to a super-heavy style creature, rather than a biotitan, we've effectively lost a unit from the upper end of the scale.
I once again propose that a second, bigger Biotitan be introduced (the current Hierophant is between warhound and reaver, so lets have one between reaver and warlord) and I humbly suggest the name Hierarch (which keeps in line with the biotitan naming conventions better than Hydraphant)

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] The Plan/What to Stat
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 2:01 am 
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You guys sprout tangents like nobody's business. So we're good on my list of units then?

On the bio-titans: when FW came out with Heirodule models they were much smaller than the old metal Epic ones. So Jervis bumped the Heirodule to a Heirophant and a Heirophant to a Hydraphant. We'll have to do some pattern naming (eg Onachus Heirodule/Leviathan Heirophant) but my intention is for everyone to be able to use their models if they have them/converted them (that means the Vituperator is here to stay, but probably not in all the lists).

Onachus is the old stuff list, not Behemoth and it is priority one. It's what Mosc needs and what I intend to provide. By old stuff I mean: if there was a model for it in SM/TL or E40k it's in the list. That's not to say that there will never be a Behemoth or Leviathan list, but they're not a priority right now.

On the stat splits, they will be exceptions rather than the rule. Taking the Zoanthrope as an example: the newer version is more of a synapse creature, the older more of a psychic cannon.

Any other questions before we move on?

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] The Plan/What to Stat
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 2:34 am 
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zombocom wrote:
Dobbsy wrote:
b/ What's it matter if Zoanthrope A walks and B flies...? They still do the same thing.


They don't do the same thing. The new style ones are synapse creatures, and hover. The old ones aren't.


dave wrote:
On the stat splits, they will be exceptions rather than the rule. Taking the Zoanthrope as an example: the newer version is more of a synapse creature, the older more of a psychic cannon.


My point is that it's a zoanthrope. Pick a stat either new or old (most likely new as old is not the norm anymore and also, what does it matter if the old version is now a synapse?) it doesn't have to be both and it'll be a heck of a lot easier to remember stuff between lists. People just want to use the minis and at a guess probably care less about them having different stats to represent each one. Just saying it will be easier in the long run for both you guys and the people playing Nids not to have to remember every little difference.

Personally, I would like one list that you can use any miniature for. Just because the old list used slugs doesn't mean they can't be renamed to modern vernacular. I could care less that they're named something else so long as I can use the minis. <shrug>


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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] The Plan/What to Stat
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:17 am 
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I'm in agreement with Glyn and Dobbsy too. Despite the fact that I'll likely never use a NetEA Nids list, from a purely task management point of view I think you're going about it all wrong and making life much harder for yourself (+ the end product not as good IMO) by taking the 2 core lists (Old/new) route.


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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] The Plan/What to Stat
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 1:06 pm 
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Well i am a nid player who will be happy to test any list the ACs make - whether that be one or two it does not matter to me.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] The Plan/What to Stat
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 2:18 pm 
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I think it's clear that whether it's one list or two, some people are going to be unhappy. It happens that Dave and I both agree on the two list approach, so that's the direction it's going. I'll be very much following his lead, so we'll end up with two very linked lists, where playtesting one will actually benefit the other.

The one list idea produced 9.2.1, and I don't think anyone's happy with that. We're trying something different, which may or may not work, but it's the direction a lot of people have been calling for for some time.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] The Plan/What to Stat
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 4:25 pm 
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On the FW models:

FW took the Trygon AV and made a war-engine version out of it.
Then FW took the Haruspex AV and made a war-engine out of it and called it Scythed Hierodule.
Then FW took the Malefactor AV and made a war-engine out of it and called it Barbed Hierodule.
Then FW took the Hierodule small Bio-Titan and called it Hierophant.
Then FW forgot that the Hierophant big Bio-Titan actually existed.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] The Plan/What to Stat
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 4:27 pm 
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Not really. The trygon is obviously an updating of the epic concept, but there's no evidence at all that the Hierodules have anything to do with the slugs.

I think closer to the truth is that they made a big beast called a hierophant, much like the epic one, and decided to make the hierodule into something different than just a smaller version of the hierophant.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] The Plan/What to Stat
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 4:29 pm 
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Then why took FW the Trygon concept but (according to you) dropped the Malefactor and Haruspex?
It seems more liklely that they used these concepts (FFty and CCty Bio-WEs) too.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] The Plan/What to Stat
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 4:33 pm 
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Having the old bug tanks share stats with the new hierodules could be one way to do it. Separate stats work too, but I'd prefer it if they were the same class as the trygon - the old minis are of a similar size.


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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] The Plan/What to Stat
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 4:48 pm 
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The new ones aren't of a similar size. I don't think we're going down the shared/generic classes route at this point, Dave is keen to have specific units represented properly, which is why we spent a long time hammering out stats for Jaldon's aborted attempt. Obviously if this approach fails I'm sure he'll be open to trying other approaches in the future.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] The Plan/What to Stat
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 5:16 pm 
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Dobbsy wrote:
My point is that it's a zoanthrope. Pick a stat either new or old (most likely new as old is not the norm anymore and also, what does it matter if the old version is now a synapse?) it doesn't have to be both and it'll be a heck of a lot easier to remember stuff between lists. People just want to use the minis and at a guess probably care less about them having different stats to represent each one. Just saying it will be easier in the long run for both you guys and the people playing Nids not to have to remember every little difference.

Personally, I would like one list that you can use any miniature for. Just because the old list used slugs doesn't mean they can't be renamed to modern vernacular. I could care less that they're named something else so long as I can use the minis. <shrug>


I think on the whole there should be a minimum of creatures with two different statlines. I also think that a compromise solution should be the first option. The big problem is LV or Inf as that has a massive impact on the way the lists will play and dicates the stats to a certain extent (stats for a single LV would be weaker than that representing ~3 inf). Rather than stress the differences there should be an idea of what this creatures purpose is in the list. Personally the Zoanthrope is a psychic gun, floating ability doesn't matter and if dropping synapse means they can use the same stats then drop synapse. I also think Inf is more fitting as the epic model is a joke, the zoanthrope has always been around warrior sized.

The old slugs still technically exist as separate and distinct creatures (Apocalypse named three of the four) therefore they should have separate statlines and can retain their names.

I don't quite get what you're driving at Dobbsy with a preference for "one list that you can use any miniature for". There isn't a complete range of Tyranid miniatures so Onachus is driving off the old models, if you collect epic Tyranids then every (official) mini you have will be in that list. Leviathan will have newer stuff that will require conversions and modelling. There is nothing to say that a future list won't be a hybrid of the two, just that right now it will be two lists and later we may get to something like the Eldar or SM with a list for every occasion (where the stats are taken from the complete unit list that is the general purpose of this thread).

If you want to use a particular model then you need to use the appropriate list just like every other race. Afterall the Voidspinner doesn't appear in every Eldar list. I know I can use all my official tyranid miniatures in Onachus and I'll have to convert or proxy stuff for Leviathan.


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