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[Xeno-Biostatistics] The Plan/What to Stat

 Post subject: [Xeno-Biostatistics] The Plan/What to Stat
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:48 pm 
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I'm spring boarding off of arkturas' work here:

viewtopic.php?f=21&t=21493

People are looking for one set of combined stats so let's work on that. My plan here is to figure out what we want stats for, debate them all a handful at a time and get one big list together for the 'nid lists to pull from (handbook style). Zombo and I already did some work in this area for Jaldon who got back to us and Chroma a month or two back. My idea in doing this is to hear what other people think to see where things stand.

I'll say that I look to stat units based on older editions of Epic and 40k and how they compare to things we already have stats for in EA (like marines, guardsmen, etc.). If you don't like this then that's where the second part comes in, the playtesting. If the stats prove too good/poor and a point adjustment won't solve the problem then we tweak them to suite. If you don't like or are unwilling to do that then your opinion is going to carry very little weight here. I can't make everyone happy and playtests take precedence over opinions.

So, let's start off with a list of what needs to be stated. Old or new, big or small what Tyranid creatures to we need stats for? Here's my first pass:

Hive Tyrant
Tyrant Guard
Tyranid Warriors
Tyranid Shrikes
Tyranid Primes
Raveners
Hormagaunts
Termagants
Genestealers
Broodlord
Lictor
Gargoyles
Harpy
Zoanthrope
Venomthrope
Carnifex
Hive Guard
Biovore
Pyrovore
Trygon
Trygon Prime
Mawloc
Tervigon
Tyrannofex
Mycetic Spore
Ripper Swarms
Hierophant
Barbed Hierodule
Scythed Hierodule
Harridan
Malanthrope
Meiotic Spore
Dominatrix
Haruspex
Malefactor
Dactylis
Exocrine
Vituperator
Hive Ship

I'm just looking for additions at this point. Removals/splits will get to in the other threads.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] The Plan/What to Stat
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 2:59 pm 
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Hydraphant?

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] The Plan/What to Stat
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 3:01 pm 
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Vituperator?

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] The Plan/What to Stat
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 3:02 pm 
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Are we talking about there being an old stuff / new stuff split list here?

If so, the way EUK approached doing the Hierodule seems a sensible approach (Based the stats on the old generic Hierodule model, rather than going with a Scythed/Barbed split as with the modern models).

In fact, EUK's list is frankly a very good "old units" army list and I would encourage the wholesale adoption of it as the NetEA "old units" list.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] The Plan/What to Stat
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 3:04 pm 
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Not sure if it is within scope but if the vituperator is considerred (planetfall) then perhaps stats for a hiveship as well?

That should be it from what i can see

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] The Plan/What to Stat
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 3:07 pm 
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The plan, as I understand it, is for Dave to develop the Old list, and the core rule and stats, and for me to work on the new list in the same style.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] The Plan/What to Stat
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 3:13 pm 
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So if there is to be a list split, do the stats even need to match?

One or two differences on common units really shouldn't be a problem IMO.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] The Plan/What to Stat
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 3:22 pm 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
If so, the way EUK approached doing the Hierodule seems a sensible approach (Based the stats on the old generic Hierodule model, rather than going with a Scythed/Barbed split as with the modern models).

I like the fact you can have two different Hierodules. They have quite different roles and considering the amount of DC3 WEs IG and Eldar get Tyranids having 2 doesn't seem unreasonable.

I'm more interested in a modern style Tyranid list, but I'm not even sure what Tyranid Shrikes or Tyranid Primes are, are they variant Tyranid Warriors? Is this really needed in epic?
Personally I'd incorporate Tyrant Guard into the stats for non-flying Hive Tyrants, so that they have an extra attack from them as well as boosted armour. Tyrant Guard are specifically designed to bodyguard Hive Tyrants rather than wandering off on their own.
Ripper Swarms are too small to deserve to be statted in epic, just as Necron Scarrabs aren't.
I support ditching the Vituperator as discussed previously. It'll never have a model and is an unnecessary invention. A forge world Harridan is large enough as is and the small old metal one could be used as a Harpy proxy.


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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] The Plan/What to Stat
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 3:27 pm 
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Off topic so kick me if you like...but do you have an idea of the special rules that the list(s) will have? Or is you're intention that points/army selection will be the only things effected by special rules?


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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] The Plan/What to Stat
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 3:35 pm 
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Quote:
I'm more interested in a modern style Tyranid list, but I'm not even sure what Tyranid Shrikes or Tyranid Primes are, are they variant Tyranid Warriors? Is this really needed in epic?

Tyranid Shrikes are Tyranid Warriors with wings.
Tyranid Primes are Tyranid Warriors with very slightly better stats and are taken as a HQ choice. You can only have a maximum of 2 in an army.

The former could have stats in Epic, the latter would be no more than a Character upgrade to Warrior units, at most.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] The Plan/What to Stat
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:27 pm 
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I'll add the Vituperator and Hiveship, the Hydraphant is just a renamed Hierophant so he's up there.

Yep, the plan is for all the lists to pull from the same unit stats and special rules. Onachus will be the old stuff and Leviathan (developed by Zombo) the new. I'm fine with allowing a few units to have two different stats (old vs new) where it's warranted (Zoanthrope, maybe Warriors, etc.).

Meph, I do have ideas laid out for special rules, we'll be talking about those too after the stat discussion. I don't really understand your second question though.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] The Plan/What to Stat
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:30 pm 
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The issue I have is that without knowing the framework of the special rules can you give the units appropriate stats? Spawning or not will have a direct impact on the saves of any units for example.

Or do you believe you can balance that out by points and formation sizes?


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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] The Plan/What to Stat
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:38 pm 
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Most likely yes. That'll be where the playtesting comes in: for stat/point adjustment.

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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] The Plan/What to Stat
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 5:58 pm 
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Particularly if the stats will be consolidated, why bother with an artificial old/new list split at all? Surely it fragments limited playtesting and isn't actually needed or helpful? Looking at both current lists the 'new' Leviathan list includes 28 units and 'old' Onachus shares most of them, with only 5 or 6 distinct units of its own (depending if you count the mycetic spore as a unit). Please just combine the units and your efforts into one Tyranid list?

Yourselves and players could still field 'old' or 'new' style armies just the same by theming the army list that way if desired, while others freely mix and match (it's an arbitrary segregation we invented anyway, which isn't supported by the background). Between the current lists there are 34 units, not excessive for an army, even if more are added. Eldar have 38 units in their army and the Lost and the Damned 46 after all.


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 Post subject: Re: [Xeno-Biostatistics] The Plan/What to Stat
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 6:26 pm 
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Quote:
Please just combine the units and your efforts into one Tyranid list?


GlynG, this is not going to work for me at all. I don't want my supplement including newer Tyranids when, fluff-wise, those Tyranids clearly came later in the game. Making one list is going to force me to publish a Tyranid list the NetEA has no hand in whatsoever. I don't want to go that route - I'd much rather see something the community worked on together in my book.

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