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Hive Fleet Onachus Tyranid List and 2016 Playtest Proposals

 Post subject: Hive Fleet Onachus Tyranid List and 2016 Playtest Proposals
PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2016 6:27 pm 
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The Tyranid list saw a small update. As always, the latest version is up here:

http://www.tp.net-armageddon.org/army-l ... ranid.html
http://www.tp.net-armageddon.org/pdfs/netea-tyranid.pdf

The changes are documented here: viewtopic.php?p=582353#p582353




For those interested in 'nid development and posting battle reports, here's what I'm purposing for this year:

  • Remove Brood Lord's Rending Claws and take it down to +25 points (from +50)
  • Allow Bio-Titans to be armed with any two weapons (Bile Launcher, Bio-Cannon, Cluster Spines, Pyro Acid Spray, Razorclaw). Max of 1 each though, except for Razorclaws.
  • Give Gargoyles IC in FF.
  • Remove this sentence from Swarming:
    Quote:
    A formation may only return units to play if it started the game with that type of unit. For example, if a formation began the game with only Termagants then it could only return Termagants via swarming.

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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Onachus Tyranid List and 2016 Playtest Propos
PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:26 pm 
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Hi! played a tournament using my nids yesterday. It was 4000 pts so I could take a quite a few formations.

I wanted to give some feedback since I see one problem with the list. It's with how the brood creatures behave. From a fluff point it seems like one should just throw them right into the frayin epic assaults. But in gaming terms I find that you don't want to. The hormagaunts are mostly a liability and also the termagaunts but to a somewhat lesser degree in assaults. That's because they die in drows due to not having any save. This gives the opponent a lot of kills in the resolution phase. I find that an unupgraded swarm/only gaunts has very little use for this reason and have a rather hard time winning assaults.

I tend to only be successful with swarms with bigger creatures with good saves that can soak up hits. And even in these formations I often find that I hold my hormagaunts back in assaults as to not give away easy kills.
That an upgraded formation is better then one without, is of course totally ok and as it should be, but I still find it to be a shame that gaunt heavy swarms work so poorly and that I can't do what the background suggests.

Epic-uk has solved this with giving brood creatures the grot rule. That seems like a too strong rule though, if combined with swarming at least.

I would like to suggest a kind of middleground for testing. My idea is that we should let a formation ignore one killed brood creature for each remaining point of synapse in the assault resolution phase.

Secondly please change zoanthrope movement to 20cm. It's not like they add a super good AA attack anyway. The lesser movement is just annoying and unnecessarily complicates things. I don't think it would break the list but just make it simpler and more enjoyable.


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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Onachus Tyranid List and 2016 Playtest Propos
PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:04 pm 
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Quote:
Epic-uk has solved this with giving brood creatures the grot rule. That seems like a too strong rule though, if combined with swarming at least.

I would like to suggest a kind of middleground for testing. My idea is that we should let a formation ignore one killed brood creature for each remaining point of synapse in the assault resolution phase.


I have been looking at the French version of the Tyranids, and they've got some very interesting ideas on this topic. In their list, Termagaunts, Hormagaunts and Gargoyles function like normal units (giving blast markers etc) but do not count for combat resolution *if the Tyranid player initiated the assault*. Also, their Synapse rule allows for the removal of an additional blast marker.

Another nice rule is that they give the Tyranid player the option of moving twice when making a hold (but may not support engagements that turn). Played a game against Borka a week ago, and this second rule would really have helped him from being stuck in his deployment the first turn. Fits very well thematically with Tyranids being this horde that surges forward no matter what.

Other things that list has that I like is:

-Tyranid Warriors are light vehicles for targeting purposes (very thematic). Also, light vehicles can be transported, but counts double.
-Hive Tyrants and Tyranid Warriors can be given jump pack (for an armour penalty) Again very thematic, and makes Gargoyle swarms a lot more interesting.

The French army lists are found on this site: http://f-erc-codex-epic-armageddon.e-monsite.com/

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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Onachus Tyranid List and 2016 Playtest Propos
PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 3:41 pm 
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Is the French list available in English anywhere?


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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Onachus Tyranid List and 2016 Playtest Propos
PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 11:12 pm 
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NoisyAssassin wrote:
Is the French list available in English anywhere?


I've done a partial, unofficial translation of them. The semi-expendable rule described above is not in these documents (should be part of the special rules but is instead on the unit description part that I haven't translated), Works as described in my previous post.


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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Onachus Tyranid List and 2016 Playtest Propos
PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 6:49 am 
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Sweet!


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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Onachus Tyranid List and 2016 Playtest Propos
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:16 pm 
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Unupgraded swarms are going to have a tough time with assaults, yes. They're intended to be upgraded for on of the reasons you brought up: to put hits on the bigger stuff and get some saves.

I haven't run into wanting to hold Hormagaunts back from CC. If anything, I want the extra hit potential. I put the AV bugs up front, then Termagants, Warriors and Hormagaunts in most of my swarms. By the time turn 2 comes around I can usually manage the AVs in CC along with the Hormagaunts with their 40cm move.

The EA list had a "1/2 gaunts rule" at one point. It was the grot rule but only half of the brrod creatured killed counted for assault resolution. It was not well received by any of my opponents. Often times I wouldn't bother prepping or supporting (sometimes both) an assault when I knew I could count on little to no "kills" on the bugs in resolution. Your suggestion is a lot more elegant and less powerful, definitely try it out. I'm not sure it would get much support in my group, but if more people are interested I'm sure I can get someone to playtest.

On Zoanthropes, they'd be a no-brainer even more so if they moved 20cm. 25 points for AA cover that keeps pace with you? Yes please. The 15cm move is fluffy and at least makes you stop and think before you get one. I will say that getting them in FF hasn't been too difficult here. I start them up front on turn 1, and after a double and an engage move they can be at the halfway line and firefighting 15cm beyond that.

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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Onachus Tyranid List and 2016 Playtest Propos
PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:41 pm 
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Dave wrote:
Unupgraded swarms are going to have a tough time with assaults, yes. They're intended to be upgraded for on of the reasons you brought up: to put hits on the bigger stuff and get some saves.

Can't say I agree with that intention as I like the feel of lots of gaunts. Like waves of brood creatures being pushed forward by the hive mind. What I'm after is increasing the power of gaunts heavy swarms basically. I think my suggestion would make medium or large size swarms more attractive.

Dave wrote:
I haven't run into wanting to hold Hormagaunts back from CC. If anything, I want the extra hit potential. I put the AV bugs up front, then Termagants, Warriors and Hormagaunts in most of my swarms. By the time turn 2 comes around I can usually manage the AVs in CC along with the Hormagaunts with their 40cm move

I also use that basic tactic of everything rushes forward on the march or double turn one. The holding hormagaunts back comes into play when I can't reach CC with my carnifexes/malefactors (quite a common occurence since a wise enemy pulls back from them/FF-assaults them first). I of course still move the AV's up front when I assault, but feel I have to stay behind with the hormagaunts since they're otherwise just easy kills.

Dave wrote:
The EA list had a "1/2 gaunts rule" at one point. It was the grot rule but only half of the brrod creatured killed counted for assault resolution. It was not well received by any of my opponents. Often times I wouldn't bother prepping or supporting (sometimes both) an assault when I knew I could count on little to no "kills" on the bugs in resolution. Your suggestion is a lot more elegant and less powerful, definitely try it out. I'm not sure it would get much support in my group, but if more people are interested I'm sure I can get someone to playtest

Ok, fair enough I will test my idea and try to make a report.


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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Onachus Tyranid List and 2016 Playtest Propos
PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 6:27 pm 
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Hi Dave,

I was looking as the suggested changes and was a bit confused about the Bio-Titan change. Do you mean removing all 0-1 weapons and instead pick two from the list?

Also I agree with Borka that the 15 cm move on Zoantropes is an issue, as they are the only source of AA besides the 0-1 Dominatrix. I also agree with you that I would use them a lot more if they had 20cm move. But EpicUK has Zoantropes for 35 points with way better stats and special rules, and there is no spam of Zoantropes in the UK lists... Yes the 15cm move has support in the fluff but I think allowing AA cover to keep up with the rest of the army is a good thing. How about trying them out with 20cm move for 30 points?

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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Onachus Tyranid List and 2016 Playtest Propos
PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 3:39 pm 
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Kind of, the weapons would all be 0-1x, except for the claws which would be 0-2x. And there would be a note saying "choose two weapons, they can't be the same unless their claws" or something to that effect. If that's still confusing I can type it up better when I don't need to run to a meeting.

You can try the Zoanthropes like that, but I haven't found their speed so much of a detraction that I didn't want to take them. It's pretty rare for them to loose out on their FF for me, and I can't think of an instance where their moved prevented them from getting an AA shot off. Crappy AA is a list defining thing for the nids, just like Black Legion.

I field them with AVs (fexes or spexes) to give some protection against AT shots. When I deploy them, they're usually 14.9cm from the table edge with the AVs to either side at 15cm from the edge and the INF behind them. After a turn 1 double they're usually at the back of the swam but still in a position to offer support and certainly AA.

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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Onachus Tyranid List and 2016 Playtest Propos
PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:31 am 
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If I remember correctly there was quite a debate about the special rules going back years, the swarming rule was not for everyone, and of course to combine this with grot rule would make them so expensive they don't feel like a horde any more.

In the end it comes down to a difference in philosophy about what feels "niddish". On the one side there is the feeling of the hive mind sacrificing gaunt after gaunt without any care whatsoever, which the UK list captures extremely well with a very simple and effective rule and nobody has any issue playing against the list (it isn't regarded as strong these days). But on the other hand, the way it is represented in this list is more like "throw everything at the enemy, kill some stuff but lose more, keep coming back with more until one side is dead". Which sounds niddish too right? At least in theory. However if in practice that is not really how people play the list and instead they just protect the gaunts that is a shame. Again it comes down to how people view the nids but to me the gaunts are the meatshields for the big stuff not the other way around.

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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Onachus Tyranid List and 2016 Playtest Propos
PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2018 10:24 am 
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You are correct Kyrt, and it tied back into how the ‘Nids swarmed as well, with dead units being fed in from the rear and then being passed forwards from synapse to synapse. So a completely different mechanism originally. The concept is actually very appealing since it mimics the wave of bugs rolling forwards, but was both difficult to understand and manage, and tended to get abused with ‘super swarms’ turning up and swamping things (while realistic, rather un-fun to play against).

Personally I would have loved to find a way of resurrecting this idea in a more manageable fashion, but alas that boat is long gone “under the bridge” to mix metaphors. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Onachus Tyranid List and 2016 Playtest Propos
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:38 am 
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Ran a play test on Saturday using the following changes:
*+1 Trygon to Trygon swarms, 4 up from 3. Same price.
*+2 genestealers to genestealers swarm, 8 up from 6. Same price.
*Broodlords at 25pts and no EA
*Extra Trygons at 50pts, instead of 60.
*Heirodule -50 points
*+1 lictors to lictors swarms, 4 up from 3.

My list:
Small swarm + dominatrix
Small swarm + hive tyrant + carni + hausprex + warrior + zoanthrope + symbiote
Small swarm + HT + carni + hausprex + warrior + zoanthrope
Small swarm + HT + hausprex + warrior + zoanthrope
Small swarm
Genestealers + brood lord
Biovores +1
Lictors
Heirodule
Harridan
Trygon swarms

With the changes, the list essentially "gained" 225 pts for free. I played two games, one against blood angels and one against Cadians.

Blood Angels
This game ended 4-0 with Nids getting DTF, Blitz, TSNP, and T&H on turn 3. The blood angels pushed hard on the first turn using their boosted speed, which forced the Nids into some unfavorable engagements early on. However, the number of assault options proved to be too much on turn two. The Nids were able to get prepped assaults and push back over the next two turns taking advantage of the close range the Blood Angels were at to engage often

Cadians
I got a stroke of early luck in this game. One of the Death Strikes missed their shot and the other missle popped a Trygon instead of the Dominatrix. The Nids had to weather some aggressive artillery fire for turn one, but managed a few critical engagements on turn 2 that gave them the position of power. Coach had to leave shortly into turn 3, but we agreed it appeared Nids would take the game 2-0 securing T&H and Blitz or T&H, TSNP, and DTF depending on how the Cadians moved. In talking with Coach, he expressed a similar sentiment that there was just too much for him to fire on and push back. As I said, the Dom surviving early is a huge help, but having extra Trygons at 50pt let me squeeze one into the list to "bodyguard."

Over all the extra added units, especially in genestealers and Trygon swarms, really felt they added a lot. Those swarms hit a lot harder than usual. I've played this list for a few years to what I like to think is relative success. It's an attrition army that I've found wins small on turn three or four (ie 2-1 victories) or wins games on points. With these extra points available, the list felt as though it could push much harder with less concern about picking smart engagements and just really leaning on the pressure of pure numbers. While I'd love to push Nids this aggressively, I'm not sure my group would feel the same way XD.

As devil's advocate, that could be the feel that people are looking for as it seems extremely Nid, just huge aggressive waves pushing the enemies force.

Some of tinkered proposals that Dave put out such as the larger swarms but for small point bumps, I think could be a good middle group allowing for more aggressive use of formations, but requiring a little more careful unit selection.

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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Onachus Tyranid List and 2016 Playtest Propos
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:24 am 
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Thanks for the report and thoughts! Great info!

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 Post subject: Re: Hive Fleet Onachus Tyranid List and 2016 Playtest Propos
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:12 pm 
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gunslinger007 wrote:
While I'd love to push Nids this aggressively, I'm not sure my group would feel the same way XD.


Ya, I felt the stealers and Trygons could at least do with a 25 point bump after my game with Norto and looking in our your two games Saturday.

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