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Points formula values for Squat

 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Squat
PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 5:34 am 
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I'd like to request that the cost of the Guild Bikers be reviewed with a view to their cost being reduced please. Here's some of my reasoning why:

The bikers currently cost 1,100 points (not exact, sorry) compared to the Eldar Jet Bike Host which is 500).

Jet Bikes are 5cm faster than Squat Bikes.

Squats receive 22 bikes in comparison to 15 for the Eldar.

Squat bikes have no weapons. Eldar Bikes have one weapon.

The Trikes have one (very effective) gun compared to 3 weapons on the Vypers.

Squat Bikes do have an additional +1 to their CAF which is good but not insurmountable if Squat Bikes and Jet Bikes were to go head to head in CC.

The Eldar Jet Bike Host adds further speed to an already dangerously mobile force. Squat Bikes represent practically the only mobility the Squats have in their army. They need these fast units even more than the Eldar do, even if it is to hold a few objectives in their own half of the board.

On the basis of a reasonable amount of similarities / capabilities I feel that the Squat Bike Host is overpriced. Yes, they should be more expensive than the Eldar Jet Bike Host but not by more than double the cost. If I had to put my own guess on it, I'd say they should be coming out at 750 points.

I'm not trying to cause annoyance btw, it's just something that jumped out at me when I was picking my force recently.

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Squat
PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 5:36 am 
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I would make no such plea for the Praetorians. They seem very well priced IMO, much more in line with Titan costs which makes perfect sense now that they have Hit Location Charts on top of an arsenal which rivals that of Titans.

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Squat
PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 6:33 am 
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The Squat Praetorians will be going down a bit once I get through the hit location revision, as will Titans. So that will be improving anyway.

As to the Eldar Bikes vs Squat Bikes, well, it's a bit more complicated than that. And also less complicated.

The Eldar Jet Bike Host is currently 513 for 15 models; 5 Vypers and 10 Jet Bikes. After Morale is accounted for, both forms of Eldar Bike cost 64.79 points. Since it's BP is essentially half (8/15), it is paying 90% of 75% for 8 models, and 90% of 40% for 7 models. In other words, the models in the Ablation group cost 43.733 each and the models in the Broken group cost 23.324 each.

The Squat Guild Bikers Company costs 1133 for 22 models; 14 Bikers, 5 Trikes, and 3 Guildmasters. The Squat Morale score is higher than the Eldar, and the Break Point (17/22) is also higher. Including Morale, a Biker stand is 52.41, a Trike is 62.4, and a Guildmaster is 179.2! The Ablation Group is 13 Bikers and 4 Trikes, which leaves the three Guildmasters and one each of Bike and Trike for the Broken group. The Ablation Group costs 90% of 88.6363% of ( 13 * 52.41 plus 4 * 62.4) or 41.809 per Biker stand and 49.778 per Trike. Each Guildmaster costs 90% of 70% of 179.2 or 112.9. The remaining Bike stand costs 23.585 and the Trike costs 28.08 for the Broken Group.

In short (no pun intended), the Squat Company costs more due to a number of factors. It has almost half again as many models and an insane BP. They also have a better Morale score. And Guildmasters. You forgot to take them into account. As a Command model with a Fixed Save of 6+ augmenting their 5+ normal save, CAF 1 higher than a Bike/Trike, a decent weapon that they always fire on FF, and are Inspirational (so the Squat Bikes / Trikes will likely not fail any Morale checks while one Guildmaster lives), they are powerful models.

Does the above mean that their value is correct? Mathematically, yes. Balance wise, maybe? Not sure. Perhaps try a game with just one Squat Guild Biker Company versus two Eldar Jet Bike Hosts. Then replay the same battle two or three times to account for variable rolls and tactics. That would really be the only way to know for sure.

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Squat
PostPosted: Sun Jul 05, 2015 4:48 pm 
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Part of the problem is the number of activations that the Squats have. Because the Squat units are powerful and cost a lot they get half as many activations as their enemy. This means that a clever Eldar opponent will be able to hold his bikes back until the Squat player has been forced to move all of his activations.

The Squat player has two choices; move his bikes into territory where they will be jumped by charging Jet Bikes OR hold them back, effectively making them useless in turn 1 unless they happen to be on Advance orders and the enemy was dumb enough to move units into the (short) range of the Squat Bikes.

In the first example, where the Squat Bikes move somewhere on the board to within 70cm of enemy bikes any Eldar player worth their salt would be able to almost double up on Squat Bikes with their 2 hosts. Sure, the first host to engage might take a battering, possibly even break, but then the second host would in all likelihood butcher the Squats with their extra attack CC die.

The end result? 5VPs for the Squats & 10VPs to the Eldar, plus the best part of a Host to go and cause more mayhem for the Squats.

The main thing I've realised here is that while the relative strengths of units must be the main factor for setting the formula, there has to be some consideration of the force as a whole in terms of activations. The purpose of the points formula as I understand it is to bring balance to the game, if this force in particular isn't looked at closer I fear the Net Epic Squats may follow their 40K counterparts into the history books...

Note that this is much a problem in Gold as it is in Evolution, the low activation count applies to both versions of the game.

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Squat
PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 7:33 am 
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Yes, well, activations is always an issue. This is something that a player has to decide on for themselves whether they want few higher cost (and power) formations or many lower cost (and power) ones. This is an issue regardless of what points cost system is being used. Saying that it is just a problem between these two formations is missing the bigger picture.

I was about to say something like "Activations are not something that the formula can account for." but what I really mean with that is that I have no idea of how to do so. If you have an idea, then by all means present it.

Personally, I think you are being a little simplistic and pessimistic about how such a combat might go. For example, in a combat of one Squat Guild Biker Company versus two Eldar Jet Bike Hosts, there is absolutely no way that the Eldar player could hold all of their detachments back until all of the Squat Bikes had moved. It is just impossible. Also, the Squat Bikers stand does have PD, so even if they got charged after moving first, they still have a defense before CC begins. Seriously, if you get the chance, please try such a battle three or more times to account for different tactics and luck.

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Squat
PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 8:18 am 
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Its a tough one - as activation count can definitely have a big influence on the game as well as force choice (meaning its too tempting to load up on cheap units as fodder and the more exotic stuff gets left behind)

the only thing i can think of off the top of my head is to have a total army points reduction based on the difference in the forces? (like 10% off for every 5 activation difference or something like that?) - however this would mean both players comparing armies, or perhaps just activation counts?

other than that, i'd hate to suggest gleaming anything from the Age of Sigmar game, however as they have no points system (meaning completely asymmetrical forces) they 'fix' this by having 'easier' victory conditions for the smaller force, so rather than 'capture all objectives/table the opponent' they get - assassinate a character or hold one particular objective. obviously this is a tad extreme, and from what i gather makes for very odd battles! there could certainly be a tie in to activation count/VP requirements? - but a better mathematician/games designer than me would need to figure that one out!

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Squat
PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 3:02 pm 
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Hi!

I've weighed in on this on the facebook group page.\

Basically, until a proper system for VP yield, number of objectives and their VP, and VP for victory is created to complement the new formula I don't think I can make any definite conclusions.

Also, as I expressed to Bissler, the mindset of how you build your army has to change. The days of praetorian heavy squat forces are gone. All armies need to keep an eye out for getting enough infantry units to "hold the line" and then worry about getting in expensive units.

In other words, the way you used to build your force may no longer be the most effective way of building it now. Tactics and force composition must change accordingly.

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Squat
PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 4:46 pm 
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I would not be in favor of altering the cost of an army based on comparative number of activations between two armies. However, what could be dependent on that is VP to win the game. In other words, if your army has significantly more activations than your opponent does, you require more VP to win the game. At what ratios I'm not sure.

Also, while activations are an issue with both normal Gold and Evolution, it seems it may be an even bigger issue with Evolution, especially for the first turn since you have that "Fog-of-War" rule that detachments that have not yet activated cannot be shot at at all. While I understand the reason behind having that rule, I'm thinking that it goes too far. Perhaps instead of flat making them impossible to target, all to-hit rolls against them are at a -2 penalty? This would provide an army with fewer activations at least a chance of having an impact in the first turn.

Actually, Praetorian heavy armies are not dead at all. It is just that their usefulness varies depending on the opponent's army, which is true under other points systems as well but perhaps not as much. For example, against a Titan-heavy Adeptus Mechanicus force they would be great. Or some forms of Tyranid armies (most Tyranid models are much more expensive under the Formula). Or Necron. Or Tau. Or a Praetorian-heavy Guard army. Or even a Titan and SH heavy Eldar army. Or a Gargant heavy Ork force. Or really anything.

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Squat
PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 9:52 pm 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
I would not be in favor of altering the cost of an army based on comparative number of activations between two armies. However, what could be dependent on that is VP to win the game. In other words, if your army has significantly more activations than your opponent does, you require more VP to win the game. At what ratios I'm not sure.

Also, while activations are an issue with both normal Gold and Evolution, it seems it may be an even bigger issue with Evolution, especially for the first turn since you have that "Fog-of-War" rule that detachments that have not yet activated cannot be shot at at all. While I understand the reason behind having that rule, I'm thinking that it goes too far. Perhaps instead of flat making them impossible to target, all to-hit rolls against them are at a -2 penalty? This would provide an army with fewer activations at least a chance of having an impact in the first turn.

Actually, Praetorian heavy armies are not dead at all. It is just that their usefulness varies depending on the opponent's army, which is true under other points systems as well but perhaps not as much. For example, against a Titan-heavy Adeptus Mechanicus force they would be great. Or some forms of Tyranid armies (most Tyranid models are much more expensive under the Formula). Or Necron. Or Tau. Or a Praetorian-heavy Guard army. Or even a Titan and SH heavy Eldar army. Or a Gargant heavy Ork force. Or really anything.


Hi!

A am in agreement with you in not favoring any modifications due to activations number. I think this is purely an issue of VP yield and proper guidelines for objectives number and yield as well as scenario development.

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Squat
PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 10:20 pm 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
Also, while activations are an issue with both normal Gold and Evolution, it seems it may be an even bigger issue with Evolution, especially for the first turn since you have that "Fog-of-War" rule that detachments that have not yet activated cannot be shot at at all. While I understand the reason behind having that rule, I'm thinking that it goes too far. Perhaps instead of flat making them impossible to target, all to-hit rolls against them are at a -2 penalty? This would provide an army with fewer activations at least a chance of having an impact in the first turn.

Actually, Praetorian heavy armies are not dead at all. It is just that their usefulness varies depending on the opponent's army, which is true under other points systems as well but perhaps not as much. For example, against a Titan-heavy Adeptus Mechanicus force they would be great. Or some forms of Tyranid armies (most Tyranid models are much more expensive under the Formula). Or Necron. Or Tau. Or a Praetorian-heavy Guard army. Or even a Titan and SH heavy Eldar army. Or a Gargant heavy Ork force. Or really anything.


That's an interesting point Magnus, thanks for making it. I'll have a good think about it. My main concern was with too many long range weapons wiping out enemy Titans and/or transports before they got a chance to participate in Turn1 something that I'd still be concerned about.

Good point about potential enemies to field Praetorians against. I'd feel almost dirty not fielding Praetorians in a Squat army!

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Squat
PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 10:39 pm 
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The other solution would be to have both players check their activation count; if the enemy's activation count was more than double, the player with fewest activations could opt to move every other activation.

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Squat
PostPosted: Mon Jul 06, 2015 11:00 pm 
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The Bissler wrote:
The other solution would be to have both players check their activation count; if the enemy's activation count was more than double, the player with fewest activations could opt to move every other activation.


That could also be a good way to deal with it.

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Squat
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 11:09 am 
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OP updated for V0.34 (Hit Location system revision). Some went down a little, some a lot.

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Squat
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 11:06 pm 
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Hi!

Guild bike force and squat bikes in general. Granted they are good (great even), but are they so good as to justify the high cost?

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Squat
PostPosted: Fri Jul 10, 2015 4:00 am 
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Really? See the discussion that begins at the top of this page of posts.

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