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Points formula values for Chaos Powers

 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Chaos Powers
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 8:20 pm 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
Good points there. I don't disagree with anything, but a few thoughts.

1. Do recall that the Powers may also freely choose any Support or Special formations from the Chaos Renegades list, so they do have access to cheap troops with which to counter other factions' cheap troop options. Cultists are almost criminally inexpensive.

2. True, the Greater Daemons themselves have all gone up, some more than others. For example, Fulgrim and Mortarion have only gone up a bit. However, each Power does have options that have reduced in cost. The various Centuries have all dropped in price, and one of the newer options (the Altar of Slaanesh) actually reduced in cost. Thus each Power does have options.

3. Very good points there. With him, and other examples that have come up recently, I'm thinking that the recent revision to the CAF system is producing numbers that are just too high, especially for high end CAF values. I'll have to think about how to fix that. There are also likely a few Weapon Modifiers that could use tweaking. Also adding Chaos Cards to your force. Currently the last is worth 15 per Card, perhaps that is too high?

_ Also, Primarch Magnus is a lot like a Squat Praetorian. One should choose him when facing worthwhile targets (IE, other Titans, Praetorians, and Greater Daemons) and not when facing forces without them. Under 2nd edition, EVERY Chaos Powers force would include him because he was far, far too good for his cost. Thus he needs to be expensive to make a Powers player think twice (or more) before including him in their army. Not perhaps as expensive as he currently is, but expensive.

4. Not currently. That is an interesting idea though. Currently, the Special Ability costs for the Daemon Engine ability vary by Power and are:
Khorne: 6
Nurgle: 0 and a *2 modifier to CAF value
Slaanesh: 30
Tzeentch: 0 and 15 per added Chaos Reward Card
_ I'm not certain how I came up with the values for Khorne and Slaanesh. There may be formulas or they may just be arbitrary, I'll have to poke around a bit more later.

How would people feel about a modifier being added to the costs for weapons where the model cannot use First Fire orders? While this would mostly apply to the Khorne Daemon Engines (that are not also Greater Daemons), it could also apply to some Flyers and other models that players create later. Would a value of *0.5 be about right? (IE, halving the weapon cost.) Perhaps *0.75?


Thanks Magnus, glad you didn't think I was trying to be irritating; it was all meant constructively. ;)

1. I had forgotten that Khorne had access to the Renegades list. I thought there was some 25% rule but I think I'm getting confused between them and the Century (which I had noticed was cheaper). Topping up with Renegades will make a difference.

2. As above, the cheaper Century is good, I was pleased to see that. Bizarrely the Altar is a unit I'd rather see increased! I was on the receiving end of it when I took Orks and it decimated an entire mob!

3. I'm useless with the maths as you know - I can comment better when I see revised costings, sorry! Yourself and Primarch seem to have good ideas about how to revise the points! I'm willing to accept that Magnus should be much more expensive. My personal feeling is about 800 points but I haven't played Magnus very often so I'm not best placed to comment. Wouldn't I be right in saying that his Beam of Power is pretty much similar to the Squat Cyclops main cannon? Wouldn't that be a reasonable unit to compare him to maybe?

4. Again, not sure about the weighting but absolutely agree that some points reduction should be applied for the lack of FF, and it's an interesting point about the fliers which myself and Craig M999 believe to be a little on the high side.

Still on about the fliers, I know if the alternative flier system is adopted the flier costs will all have to be looked at again. I'd be really grateful if the formula held on to points valuations under the current system as we will be sticking with that one.

Thanks for considering my feedback! Cheers!

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Chaos Powers
PostPosted: Sun Jul 12, 2015 11:45 pm 
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Hi!

This is just no way Magnus will ever cost under 1000 points in his current incarnation. Stat per stat, ability per ability, maybe only the Imperator is better. Maybe.

I can't remember the last time I have seen Magnus "die". Probably under second edition rules. Under Gold run by a competent player it is essence untouchable/unkillable. The few methods to try to eliminate him (grey knight assault), were costly and easy to counter.

Its either the unit at high cost or some MAJOR nerfing to bring his cost down. Not even the cyclops weapon is comparable to it since that weapon cannot fly/skim, nor is the cyclops invulnerable (no chaos cards to use).

The unit, in plain English is BROKEN. Irretrievably broken. His value is at least 2-3 times the value of any of the other primarchs.

In fact try this experiment which I have tried. The three other primarchs versus Magnus by himself. Count how many times he will lose (hint probably none. 100cm range is insurmountable for the other primarchs). So a primarch that can easily beat all the other primarchs combined a majority of times should be worth at least 3x as much. Even under gold that would be 1800 to 600 points in favor of Magnus as high cost.

Any less of a cost difference (in the magnitude of AT LEAST double the cost of the next costliest primarch) is unacceptable due to the overwhelming power disparity.

The fan base needs to accept either it gets nerfed or you pay for the privilege. I see no middle ground on this unit.

Oh an in case anyone thinks I'm being too serious, some smileys! ;) :) ;D

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Chaos Powers
PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 8:27 am 
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Primarch, you are incorrect on one point about the Primarch Magnus model. He is not a Flyer. He doesn't even have Skimmer. Apparently his wings are just ornamental.

Bissler, there is something you could do to help with this if you, and your friend that you play games with were willing to try. Play a game with Primarch Magnus (possibly with a couple of cheap Support formations) versus a Squat Doomanvil Squadron at their current points values. Then play the same game two or three times more (to reduce variation from different rolls), and report back with what happens. It would also give you a sense of just how powerful Primarch Magnus really is.

It would be possible to bring his value under 1k. It would be very tricky to do that without also reducing everything else by the same proportion and thus having the same problem. It's probably going to come down to reducing the weight of the various modifiers that most models' weapons do not have (IE, Penetrating, Ignore Cover, etc) and of other Special Abilities.

I've figured out why the Slaanesh Daemon Engine cost is 30. The effects that one of those gets is a Psychic Save of 4+ and all foes have a -1 to-hit penalty. As the latter is the same as the Hard to Hit Special Ability which currently costs 15, and a Psychic Save of 4+ costs 15, the total is 30.

The Khorne one is a bit more complicated. It gives a +1 to Armor Saves, +1d6 to CAF, and +1 to hit; but all of those only when the Khorne side is winning. Oh, and they cannot have First Fire orders.
_ The Armor saves bonus is easy. That costs 3 points.
_ CAF is rather more complicated. Ignoring the Titan Daemon Engines, all of them are Vehicle or Heavy Artillery, thus Type/Base value is 6, Terrain Access is 1.75, Movement value is 3.1428571 (6 models with 15cm, one with 20cm), and misc is 1. Thus the cost per point of CAF would be 6.89 (6+1.75+3.14+1-5). The average result on 1d6 is 3.5, so the average cost here would be 6.89*3.5 or 24.125. Actually no, it wouldn't be. These values were set before the CAF revision happened, so the cost would have been 3.5*4 or 14.
_ Similarly, the value for the to-hit bonus was set before any of the revision to that happened, thus the average increase in cost for the 7 non-Titan Khorne Daemon Engines would have been 38.457. If done with current calculations, it would be 22.828.
The cost for the three bonuses would be 4+14+38 = 56. I would probably have halved that since they only happen if winning, thus 28. Since I listed the final cost as 6, I must have adjusted the 28 down by 22 points to account for not being able to use First Fire orders. Or something like that.

Thus if the modifier for not being able to use First Fire orders is removed from the Daemon Engine ability cost, the cost of the ability using current values (3+24+23 = 50/2 = 25) should be adjusted to 25.

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Chaos Powers
PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 7:15 pm 
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Hi Magnus,

I will try to do some experiments at some point with Magnus as you suggest. We're playing Orks v IG 3,000 points tomorrow night so it should be good fun seeing lots of infantry (potentially) running around the board!

I have a very meaty project at the moment to do an Evolution video tutorial which teaches players how to play the basic rules throughout a battle report (I felt explaining the rules over a game would be more interesting to watch than simply a lot of dry theory). This means I will effectively be out of action for the coming week, possibly longer because of the amount of work it will entail. I'm hoping it will be well worth the effort when done though! Thereafter I'm sure I will be able to do some small play tests.

Thanks for the breakdown on the Khorne Daemon Engines; could I just confirm that the costings at the start of this thread have still to be updated to reflect the slight change you pointed out?

Cheers!

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Chaos Powers
PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 9:03 pm 
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As of the current posting, the OP still uses 6 for the cost of the Khorne Daemon Engine ability. As the two of you seem to think that the First Fire prohibition should be moved to affecting the weapons directly, I'll add that to the list of things to adjust. I was hoping to hear from a couple more people, but I guess nobody else is following this thread.

I'll start by using a -50% (IE, *0.5) adjustment (to weapon cost) for the inability to use First Fire orders and see what that does. Actually, this should be a quick adjustment, so I'll do that now. Of course, doing this means that the SA cost goes up to 25, so the net effect may not be much.

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Chaos Powers
PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 9:52 pm 
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Just finished adjusting the SA cost and weapon costs for affected Khorne models. Despite not being a Daemon Engine as such, I noticed that the Blood Slaughterer also is not able to use FF orders and thus adjusted for this. I had also apparently not put in a modifier for having to shoot at the nearest model, friend or foe, so I adjusted by a further *0.5 for that.

Note that OP is NOT yet adjusted for these changes. There should be some discussion before doing that, I think. Models affected (and by how much) are:

Model costs:
Blood Slaughterer: ________ 41.54 _ -5.1
Blood Reaper: _____________ 92.25 _ +5
Brass Scorpion: __________ 152.4 _ +10
Cauldron of Blood: _______ 133.8 _ -15
Death Dealer: ____________ 125.7 _ +12.4 [Transport 5: Inf 1/1 or W 1/2; 1 LA no slots]
Defiler – Khorne: ________ 121.8 __ -8
Tower of Skulls: _________ 121.1 __ +4
Doom Blaster: _____________ 96.48 _ +2.8
Banelord: ________________ 506.6 _ -11
Banelord, Command: _______ 603.2 _ +19
Lord of Battle: __________ 542 ___ +19

Formations
_ Company
Lord of Battle +2 weapons: _ 683 _ +24
Banelord with Command: _____ 760 _ +24

_ Support
Blood Slaughterer: _________ 160 _ -20
Defilers: __________________ 359 _ -23
Daemonic Engines, select three:
__ Blood Reaper each: _______ 91 __ +5
__ Brass Scorpion each: ____ 150 _ +10
__ Cauldron of Blood each: _ 131 _ -15
__ Death Dealer each: ______ 123 _ +12
__ Tower of Skulls each: ___ 119 __ +4
__ Doom Blaster each: _______ 95 __ +3

_ Special
Banelord Titan, base: ____ 567 _ -13
Banelord with Command: ___ 676 _ +22

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Chaos Powers
PostPosted: Mon Jul 13, 2015 10:32 pm 
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Hi!

As far as I can tell they are all much cheaper than the original Gold costs. You could make a fairly sizable Khorne horde with those costs. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Chaos Powers
PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2015 11:34 pm 
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OP updated for recent change to Khorne Daemon Engine cost. The SA itself now costs 25 and all weapons of the model are adjusted by *0.5 (IE, halved) due to being unable to use First Fire orders. The latter also applies to the Blood Slaughterer.

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Chaos Powers
PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 3:27 am 
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Updated of for typo with Warp Palace formation cost for V0.34.

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Chaos Powers
PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2015 11:43 pm 
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Updated OP for V0.4

The Greater Daemons dropped a lot, many by about 1/3rd of their prior cost. Primarch Magnus is still quite high though.

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Chaos Powers
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2015 4:30 am 
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I am really liking the changes here, particularly to Khorne as hat is the force that I am familiar with. Like the Squats I'm keen to get a game in with these!

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Chaos Powers
PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2015 6:46 pm 
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OP updated for V0.41

Fixed error with Tzeentch Horrors calculation.

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Chaos Powers
PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 6:53 pm 
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Over on Facebook, Jorge asked for a detailed breakdown of the Tzeentch Automations, Doom Wing, and Primarch Magnus models. As Facebook is just not a good place for that level of detail (in my opinion), here they are.

Automation - Infantry - V0.41
Type: 1
Terrain: 2.75
Move: 10cm: 2
modifiers: none: 1
Total Move Cost: 5.5 (2.75*2*1)
Save: F5+: 12 (4*3)
CAF: +3: 5.25 ( (1+2+2.75+1-5)*3 = (6.75-5)*3 = 1.75*3 = 5.25)
Weapon: 9 (Missile Launcher - same weapon that generic Chaos Marine Stands have: 2*1.5*2*1.5)
SA: 20 (They have two SA that translate to fixed-cost modifiers)
_ Immune to Ethereal Psychic Powers: 15
_ Inorganic: 5
Thus their value before Morale is 52.75 (5.5 +12 +5.25 +9 +20)
Morale: -- (Fearless: +40%: 73.85)
Orders: must be within 10cm of Command to receive orders (*0.8), or they have better than default behavior (*1.1) so: 73.85 *0.8 *1.1 = 64.988
Formation: 6 stands, BP 6/6 so: 64.988 *6 = 389.928, rounded to 390.

Costs are unchanged for V0.42.


Doom Wing - Vehicle, Flyer - V0.41
Type: 3
TA: 1.75
Move: 100cm: 20
modifier: Flyer: 3
Total Move Cost: 105 (1.75*20*3)
Save: 4+: 9 (3*3)
CAF: +6: 136.5 ( (3+1.75+20+3-5)*6 = (27.75-5) *6 = 22.75*6 = 136.5)
Weapon: 90 (Flame Cannon: Lg Teardrop template: 15*1.5*2*2)
SA: 15 (Tzeentch Daemon Engine - provides 1 Chaos Card, error: this was changed to cost 10 per formation, fixed in V0.42)
Model cost before Morale is 358.5 (3 +105 +9 +136.5 +90 +15)
Morale 1 is +30% or *1.3 so: 358.5 *1.3 = 466.05
Formation is 3 models, BP 2/3, so: (466.05*2*0.833)+(466.05*0.6) = 766.4393 +279.63 = 1056.07 which rounds to 1056.

Doom Wing - V0.42 (only changes specifically listed)
modifier: Flyer: 2
Total Move Cost: 70 (1.75*20*2)
CAF: +6: 130.5 ( (3+1.75+20+2-5)*6 = (26.75-5)*6 = 21.75*6 = 130.5)
SA: 3.333 (one third of 10 points per formation)
Model Cost before Morale is 305.833 (3 +70 +9 +130.5 +90 +3.333)
Morale 1 is *1.3 so: 305.833 *1.3 = 397.583
Formation is 3 models, BP 2/3, so: (397.583*2*0.833)+(397.583*0.6) = 662.3738 +238.55 = 900.924 which rounds to 901.

Yes, they are still expensive, but they can move most of the way across the board and take out large swathes of Infantry with three templates, or gang up on a big target in CC then just fly away as Flyers cannot be pinned. Thus a very versatile model.


Primarch Magnus - Knight/Infantry - V0.41 (Gold stats)
Type: 4 (Knight pinning class)
TA: 2.75 (Infantry for terrain movement restrictions)
Move: 10cm: 2
modifiers: Command: 2
Total Move Cost: 11 (2.75*2*2)
Save: 2+: 15 (5*3)
CAF: +10: 115 ( (4+2.75+2+2-5)*20 [10*2 due to Greater Daemon Fear] = (10.75-5)*20 = 5.75*20 = 115)
Weapon: Beam of Power: 1418
_ Base 2 (direct fire)
_ 100cm: 2
_ 2+: 3
_ TSM -6: 7
_ Ignore Cover: 1.5
_ Penetrating +3: 2.5
_ Command: 1.5
_ Physical Psychic: 1.5
_ Destroys Buildings: 2
Total weapon cost: 2*2*3*7*1.5*2.5*1.5*1.5*2 = 1418
SA: 40
_ Greater Daemon: -5
_ gives 3 Chaos Cards: 45 (error, should be 10 per card. Fixed in V0.42 for all Greater Daemons)
Total Model Cost before Morale is: 1603 (4 +11 +15 +115 +1418 +40)
Morale -- is *1.4 so: 1603*1.4 = 2243.5
Formation is 1 model, BP of model (1/1) so cost is 2243.5 which rounds to 2244.

[As a quick aside, I take back the comparison to the Squat Cyclops. The Cyclops' main gun doesn't even come close to the Beam with a cost of 42. The Squat Behemoth's Railgun is closer at 700 points, and the AMO Mars' Sonic Disruptor is closer at 810, but even that is just over half the cost of the Beam of Power. Primarch Magnus has the single most powerful weapon in the whole game. Anyway, back to the comparison.]

Primarch Magnus the Red - V0.42 (Gold stats)
SA: 25 (fixed cost of Chaos Cards to 10 per card, so: 30 -5 =25)
Total Model Cost before Morale: 1588
Morale: 1588 *1.4 = 2222.5
Formation cost is thus 2223 after rounding.

The two proposed, weaker versions presented earlier in this thread brought up to V0.41/2, would then cost as follows. Any given army should still be limited to just one named "Primarch Magnus" regardless of which version is selected.

Primarch Magnus the Blue (proposed name)
Type: Knight: 4
TA: Infantry: 2.75
Move: 10cm: 2
modifier: Command: 2
Total Move Cost: 11 (2.75*2*2)
Save: 2+: 15 (5*3)
CAF: +10: 115 ( (4+2.75+2+2-5)*20 [10*2 due to Greater Daemon Fear] = (10.75-5)*20 = 5.75*20 = 115)
Weapon: Beam of Destruction (proposed)
_ Base: 2
_ 75cm: 1.5
_ 2+: 3
_ -5: 6
_ Ignore Cover: 1.5
_ Penetrating +2: 2
_ Command: 1.5
_ Physical Psychic: 1.5
_ Damages Buildings: 1.5
Total Weapon cost: 546.8 (2*1.5*3*6*1.5*2*1.5*1.5*1.5)
SA: 25 (3 cards 30, GD -5)
Total Model Cost before Morale: 716.8 (4+11+15+115+546.8+25)
Morale: 1003.45
Formation cost: 1003

Primarch Magnus the White (proposed)
Type: Knight: 4
TA: Infantry: 2.75
Move: 10cm: 2
modifier: Command: 2
Total Move Cost: 11 (2.75*2*2)
Save: 2+: 15 (5*3)
CAF: +10: 115 ( (4+2.75+2+2-5)*20 [10*2 due to Greater Daemon Fear] = (10.75-5)*20 = 5.75*20 = 115)
Weapon: Ray of Destruction (proposed)
_ Base: 2
_ 75cm: 1.5
_ 2+: 3
_ -4: 5
_ Ignore Cover: 1.5
_ Penetrating +1: 1.5
_ Command: 1.5
_ Physical Psychic: 1.5
_ Damages Buildings: 1.5
Total Weapon Cost: 341.7 (2*1.5*3*5*1.5*1.5*1.5*1.5*1.5)
SA: 25
Total Model Cost before Morale: 511.7 (4+11+15+115+341.7+25)
Morale: 716.406
Formation: 716

Reducing the power of this model's weapon any further would put it to, or below, the power of the Daemon Prince's weapon, and a Greater Daemon's weapon should be more powerful than that of a Daemon Prince. In my mind anyway. The costs of the lesser versions could be brought lower by reducing CAF score if needed.

I am also planning on adjusting many Weapon ability values in a future revision, so the problem with the Beam being overly expensive may fix itself eventually.

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Chaos Powers
PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2015 7:49 pm 
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Hi!

The variant Magnus' look very viable points wise.

Its also very important to point out just how powerful his weapon really is.

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Chaos Powers
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2015 6:20 pm 
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OP updated for V0.42

Some interesting changes here. Most Tzeentch forces reduced a bit.

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