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Points formula values for Chaos Powers

 Post subject: Points formula values for Chaos Powers
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 8:15 am 
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Updated for most recent version of the formula (V0.43)
__________

Model or Formation name _ V0.43 Cost _ vs 0.42 _ vs Gold

_ Khorne
Bloodletter: _____________ 37.83 ____ 0 ______ +7.83
Chaos Marine: ____________ 35.25 ____ 0 ______ -4.75
Cultist Fanatic: _________ 24.238 ___ 0 ______ -5.763
Khorne Berserker: ________ 72.3 _____ 0 _____ +32.3
Fleshhound: ______________ 42.9 _____ 0 _____ +22.9
Juggernaut: ______________ 48.425 ___ 0 _____ +18.43
Blood Slaughterer: _______ 50.819 ___ 0 ______ +0.819
Daemon Prince of Khorne _ 134.4 _____ 0 _____ -15.6
Blood Reaper: ___________ 100.43 ____ 0 ______ +0.425
Brass Scorpion: _________ 153.24 ____ 0 _____ +53.24
Cauldron of Blood: ______ 150.48 ____ 0 _____ +50.48
Death Dealer: ___________ 132.24 ____ 0 _____ +32.24
Defiler – Khorne: _______ 133.9 _____ 0 _____ +83.9
Tower of Skulls: ________ 134 _______ 0 _____ +34
Cannon of Khorne: _______ 161.98 ____ 0 _____ +96.98
Doom Blaster: ___________ 105.92 ____ 0 ______ +5.917
Bloodthirster: __________ 394.1 _____ 0 _____ +94.1
Primarch Angron: ________ 305.64 ____ 0 ______ +5.637
Banelord: _______________ 583.97 ___ +9.78 _ -116
Banelord, Command: ______ 866.28 _ +136.6 __ +166.3
Lord of Battle: _________ 510.37 __ +0.33 __ +110.4

_ Nurgle
Beast of Nurgle: __________ 58.175 ___ 0 ____ +18.8
Chaos Marine: _____________ 35.25 ____ 0 _____ -4.75
Magi (Nurgle): ___________ 198.12 __ +82.06 _ +48.12
Nurgling Swarm: ___________ 21.45 ____ 0 ____ +21.45
Plaguebearer: _____________ 74.75 ____ 0 ____ +44.75
Plague Marine: ____________ 39.3 _____ 0 _____ -0.7
Chaos Spawn: ______________ 44.567 ___ 0 _____ -5.433
Daemon Prince of Nurgle: _ 193.69 ___ +8.82 _ +43.69
Shambler: _________________ 73.125 ___ 0 ____ +23.13
Breath of Nurgle: ________ 376.5 _____ 0 ___ +311.5
Defiler – Nurgle: ________ 124.8 _____ 0 ____ +74.8
Contagion Plague Engine: __ 97.432 _ +32.38 _ +32.43
Great Unclean One: _______ 427.7 _____ 0 ___ +127.7
Primarch Mortarion: ______ 260.68 ___ +2.52 _ -39.32
Plague Tower: ____________ 700.25 _ +119.8 _ +300.2541
Bubonis: ________________ 1549.3 __ +444 _ +349


_ Slaanesh
Chaos Marine: _______________ 35.25 ____ 0 ______ -4.75
Daemonette: _________________ 38.35 ____ 0 ______ +8.35
Fiend: ______________________ 20.963 ___ 0 _____ +10.963
Magi (Slaanesh): ___________ 319.13 ____ 0 ____ +169.13
Noise Marine: _______________ 65.04 __ +24.3 ___ +25.04
Beast Rider: ________________ 27.3 ____ -0.9 ____ +7.3
Daemon Prince of Slaanesh: _ 158.2 _____ 0 ______ +8.2
Defiler – Slaanesh: ________ 156.39 __ +17.55 __ +91.39
Hell Strider: _______________ 93.6 _____ 0 _____ +43.6
Hell Scourge: ______________ 145.63 ____ 0 _____ +30.63
Hell Knight: _______________ 165.4 _____ 0 _____ +30.4
Keeper of Secrets: _________ 298.48 __ +15.12 ___ -1.52
Primarch Fulgrim: __________ 308.88 ____ 0 ______ +8.875
Altar of Slaanesh: _________ 243.42 ____ 0 ____ -107
Questor: ___________________ 327.04 ____ 0 ____ +102
Subjugator: ________________ 389.48 __ +28.98 _ +164.5

_ Tzeentch
Automation: _________________ 64.988 ___ 0 _____ +29.988
Chaos Marine: _______________ 35.25 ____ 0 ______ -4.75
Flamer: _____________________ 18.525 ___ 0 ______ -1.475
Horror, Blue: _______________ 10.725 ___ 0 _____ +10.73
Horror, Pink: _______________ 57.135 ___ 0 _____ +27.14
Magi (Tzeentch): ___________ 123.13 ____ 0 _____ -26.87
Disc Rider: _________________ 40.8 _____ 0 ______ +0.8
Psychic Screamer: ___________ 25.08 ____ 0 ______ +0.08
Daemon Prince of Tzeentch: _ 177.1 _____ 0 _____ +27.1
Defiler – Tzeentch: ________ 148.59 __ +17.55 __ +63.59
Doom Wing: _________________ 397.58 ____ 0 ____ +312.58
Fire Lord: _________________ 340.46 ____ 0 _____ +40.46
Silver Tower: ______________ 166.08 __ +22.1 ____ -8.925
Warp Palace: _______________ 698.26 __ -43.94 _ +298.3
Lord of Change: ____________ 381.54 __ -12.47 __ +81.54
Primarch Magnus Red _______ 2222.5 _____ 0 ___ +1922.5
Warp Vortex: ________________ 63.7 _____ 0 _____ -36.3
Skylok: ____________________ 801.09 __ -37.17 _ -199


__ Chaos Power list formations
_Khorne
_ Company
Bloodthirster: _____________ 394 ____ 0 ___ +94
Primarch Angron: ___________ 306 ____ 0 ____ +6
World Eaters Century: ______ 543 __ +88 ___ -57
Lord of Battle +2 weapons: _ 510 ____ 0 __ +110
__ Chain Fist: ______________ 52 ____ 0 ___ +27
__ Death Storm: _____________ 83 ____ 0 ____ -2
__ Doom Burner: ____________ 125 ____ 0 ___ +60
__ Hell Blade: ______________ 37 ____ 0 ___ +12
Banelord with Command: _____ 866 _ +136 __ +166*

_ Support
Berserkers: ________________ 275 __ +29 ___ +75
Bloodletters: ______________ 144 ___ +8 ____ -6
Blood Slaughterer: _________ 152 __ +15 ___ -48
Cannon of Khorne: __________ 378 __ +43 __ +178
Cultist Fanatics: ___________ 92 ____ 0 ___ -58
Defilers: __________________ 312 ___ +9 __ +162
Daemonic Engines, select three:
__ Blood Reaper each: _______ 78 ___ +2 ____ -5.333
__ Brass Scorpion each: ____ 119 ___ +3 ___ +35.667
__ Cauldron of Blood each: _ 117 ___ +3 ___ +33.667
__ Death Dealer each: ______ 103 ___ +3 ___ +19.667
__ Tower of Skulls each: ___ 104 ___ +3 ___ +20.667
__ Doom Blaster each: _______ 82 ___ +2 ____ -1.333
Fleshhounds: _______________ 163 ___ +9 ___ +63
Juggernauts: _______________ 184 __ +10 ___ -16

_ Special
Mark of Khorne per model: _ varies, list pending
Banelord Titan, base: ____ 584 __ +10 __ -116
Banelord with Command: ___ 866 _ +136 __ +166
Daemon Prince of Khorne: _ 134 ____ 0 ___ -16


_Nurgle
_ Company
Great Unclean One: ___ 428 ____ 0 __ +128
Primarch Mortarion: __ 261 ___ +3 ___ -39
Death Guard Century: _ 413 __ +65 __ -187
Plague Tower: ________ 700 _ +120 __ +300
Bubonis Titan: ______ 1549 _ +444 __ +349*

_ Support
Beast of Nurgle: __________ 221 __ +12 ___ +21
Breath of Nurgle: _________ 879 __ +63 __ +679
Chaos Spawn: _______________ 45 ____ 0 ____ -5
Contagion Plague Engines: _ 227 __ +80 ___ +27
Defilers: _________________ 291 ___ +8 __ +141
Nurgling Swarms: ___________ 82 ___ +5 ___ +82
Plaguebearers: ____________ 284 __ +15 __ +134
Plague Marine: ____________ 149 __ +15 ___ -51
Shamblers: ________________ 205 ___ +8 ____ +5

_ Special
Mark of Nurgle per model: _ not sure how to value
Bubonis Titan: __________ 1453 _ +348 __ +253
Daemon Prince of Nurgle: _ 194 ____ 0 ___ +44
Nurgle Magi: _____________ 198 __ +82 ___ +48


_Slaanesh
_ Company
Keeper of Secrets: __________ 298 __ +15 ____ -2
Primarch Fulgrim: ___________ 309 ____ 0 ____ +9
Altar of Slaanesh: __________ 243 ____ 0 __ -107
Emperor's Children Century: _ 514 _ +161 ___ -86
House Devine Knights: ______ 1098 _ +179 __ +198
House Devine Scourges: ______ 951 __ +88 __ +151

_ Support
Beast Riders: __ 104 ___ +8 ____ +4
Daemonettes: ___ 146 ___ +8 ____ -4
Defilers: ______ 365 __ +50 __ +165
Fiends: _________ 80 ___ +5 ___ +30
Hell Strider: __ 218 ___ +6 ___ +68
Hell Scourge: __ 340 __ +10 ___ -10
Hell Knight: ___ 386 __ +11 ___ -14
Noise Marines: _ 139 _ +108 ___ -61
Questors: ______ 654 ____ 0 __ +204
Subjugators: ___ 779 __ +58 __ +329

_ Special
Mark of Slaanesh per model: _ not sure how to value it
Daemon Prince of Slaanesh: _ 158 ____ 0 ____ +8
Slaanesh Magi: _____________ 319 ____ 0 __ +169


_Tzeentch
_ Company
Lord of Change: _______________ 382 __ -12 ___ +82
Primarch Magnus: _____________ 2223 ____ 0 _ +1923
Thousand Sons Century VP 2+4: _ 654 __ +44 ___ +54
Warp Palace: __________________ 698 __ -44 __ +298

_ Support
Automation: _______ 390 ____ 0 __ +190
Defilers: _________ 347 __ +50 ___ +97
Disc Riders: ______ 155 __ +16 ___ -45
Doom Wings: _______ 928 __ +27 __ +678
Flamers: ___________ 70 ___ +3 ___ -30
Fire Lord: ________ 340 ____ 0 ___ +40
Horrors: __________ 206 __ +11 ___ +56
Psychic Screamers: _ 38 ___ +4 ___ -12
Silver Towers: ____ 249 __ +55 __ -101
Warp Vortex: _______ 64 ____ 0 ___ -36

_ Special
Mark of Tzeentch per model: _ 57 __ +23 ___ +32
Skylok: ____________________ 801 __ -37 __ -199
Daemon Prince of Tzeentch: _ 177 ____ 0 ___ +27
Tzeentch Magi: _____________ 123 ____ 0 ___ -27

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Last edited by MagnusIlluminus on Thu Jun 08, 2017 4:25 am, edited 20 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Chaos Powers
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 5:05 pm 
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Excellent work as always Magnus!

I don't know what to say about Primarch Magnus of course. It seems...excessive.

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Chaos Powers
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 6:28 pm 
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Hi!

I'm not surprised on Magnus' cost. He is head and shoulders above any of the other daemons. So much so that he is the most commonly seen greater daemon in net epic games.

He flies, he's a psyker, his eye of magnus can kill titans, etc. He's basically better than all the other greater daemons put together.

If you were to remove his eye beam power he would be comparable to the other

In fact unless the other greater deamons can somehow all get into close combat with him, he can literally kill all of them with his eye.

He's just too good for the points. This is one model that needs as serious nerfing. If not it should at least cost more than all other greater daemons combined.

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Chaos Powers
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 6:30 pm 
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Hi!

Magnus, if you were to remove the cost of the eye weapon and just list the cost of it akin to a good psyker power, what would the cost be?

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Chaos Powers
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 8:31 pm 
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Without the Beam of Power, his cost would be: 48+20+80+40=188

How much higher it would be would depend heavily on the exact Psychic Power. For example, adding the exact powers that a Tzeentch Magi has would add 168.9, whereas adding the powers of an Eldar Warlock would be 259. Remember, I'm individually valuing each Psychic Power, generally as weapons as that's how most of them work. Can you be more specific as to exactly what power or powers you think PM should have?

I also noticed as I was going through these that the Tzeentch versions of most things tend to be more expensive overall than the others are.

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Chaos Powers
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:55 pm 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
Without the Beam of Power, his cost would be: 48+20+80+40=188

How much higher it would be would depend heavily on the exact Psychic Power. For example, adding the exact powers that a Tzeentch Magi has would add 168.9, whereas adding the powers of an Eldar Warlock would be 259. Remember, I'm individually valuing each Psychic Power, generally as weapons as that's how most of them work. Can you be more specific as to exactly what power or powers you think PM should have?

I also noticed as I was going through these that the Tzeentch versions of most things tend to be more expensive overall than the others are.


Hi!

No single power or set of powers is going to be a good match, so I guess we need to make an independent valuation on this particular power.

If a warlock is 259, the cost of the eye beam should be at least as much if not more.

Since you are evaluating each power individually and this is such a unique one, I would assign this power a cost superior to psyker of highest cost. So if the warlock is the most expensive psyker (or grouping of powers) the eye could be 300, making the total cost for magnus 188+300=488.

Tzeentch stuff will be more expensive over all since most of it flies or have clearly superior abilities (like horrors splitting in two for example). This is expected and acceptable. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Chaos Powers
PostPosted: Thu Jun 12, 2014 11:49 pm 
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What you've both suggested above seems fair enough to me. I completely agree that he is way better than the rest and needs to be more expensive. It's just a question of how much more and it looks like you're well on the way to sorting it! ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Chaos Powers
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 5:50 am 
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Er, we cannot just give an undefined Psychic Power a value and call it good. That breaks the entire concept of the points system. To be able to put a points cost to a power, it would need to have exact and specific details on what it is and does. If you are trying to say that the Beam of Power would now be considered a Psychic Power, that would not change it's value in any way, as it does not change how it works or how well it works.

I guess I wasn't specific enough. It's not that a Warlock costs 259, it is that the Psychic Powers that a Warlock has is valued at 259. Same with Tzeentch Magi. In fact, that value of 259 is really the average of the costs of a Warlock's three powers, since the Warlock is limited to one power per turn. I can go into details on how that value is determined if need be.


That said, I really don't think that replacing the Beam of Power with some other ability is the way to go. It is really his signature ability. Perhaps it could be weakened a bit, but not too much. Let's see what we can do.

I decided to look back at my copy of Renegades (Epic 2nd edition) and see if we could save any points by regressing PM back to those stats, but his stats there are nearly identical. The only difference is that Renegades says that PM can "attack buildings" with the Beam, whereas NetEpic says he "Destroys Buildings". I suppose we could reduce "Destroys" down to "Damages". Doing that would drop one modifier from *2 to *1.5, bringing the cost of the Beam to 2126 and his model cost to 2314. [Company cost: 2915] While this is a bit better, it still seems rather high.

Looking at the stats, the TSM really stands out. At a -6 it is tied with being the strongest TSM in the game with the Plasma Destructor, Plasma Annihilator on maximal, Eldar Tremor Cannon (under certain circumstances), and the Zoanthrope (at 25cm range) being the ONLY other weapons with TSM of -6. Even the Volcano Cannon only has a -4. While I do feel that the Beam is supposed to be one of the strongest weapons in the game, dropping it to a -5 would mean that while it would be below the named weapons above, it would still be stronger than everything else in the game. Dropping the TSM by one point to -5 would adjust the TSM modifier from *7 to *6, which adjusts the weapon cost to 1823, the total model cost to 2011, and the formation cost to 2535. [Including the adjustment above.]

The next thing that I'd recommend reducing is the Penetrating. [Heck, I'm already cheating on the modifier for this value as I'm treating the Beam as a Titan weapon.] If we reduced the Penetrating value from +3 to +2, that modifier would be reduced from *2.5 to *2, this would reduce the weapon cost to 1458, the model cost to 1646, and the Formation cost to 2075, including both adjustments above.

The only other thing that I'd consider reducing is the Range. If we drop that from 100cm to 75cm, the range modifier drops from *2 to *1.5, the weapon value is 1094, model cost is 1282, and formation cost is 1615, including all adjustments above.

While the TSM or Penetrating could be reduced even further, doing so would run the risk of making the Primarch less unique. At 1615 he is a bit more than twice the cost of a Lord of Change (note the cost increase on that model as well), and significantly more than every other Greater Daemon except Bubonis. This might be the right spot for him.

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Chaos Powers
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 7:19 pm 
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Hi!

I agree Magnus needs to be "nerfed". The eye beam is so over the top that it alone makes taking any other daemon a waste.

I also agree that to begin circumventing the points formula with "special" arbitrarily assigned cost is also not a good idea.

Even in first edition the lord of change was more expensive, but was not so overpowering.

I like your recommendations on reducing the stats on it. Lower the range to 75cm, I would even entertain lowing it to 50cm since this is more in line with other psyker powers, lower the TSM to at least -4, I would prefer -3 with a penetration of +1.

What would the cost be with range 50cm, TSM -3, penetrating +1?

It's high time this ability gets reigned in. IMO it is probably the single most overpowered ability in the game as written.

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Chaos Powers
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 8:33 pm 
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In my view the Beam really should be significantly better than most Psychic Powers because he IS a Greater Daemon and they are not, and a GD of the deity of Sorcery no less.

Still, that said, it doesn't hurt to look at lower stats.

With Range reduced to 50cm, TSM reduced to -4, and Penetrating reduced to +1, changes are as follows:
_ Range of 50cm reduces the Range modifier from *1.5 to *1
_ TSM of -4 reduces the TSM modifier from *6 to *5
_ If Penetrating is reduced to +1, we really should return to valuing it as a non-Titan weapon, which means its modifier remains at *2
These adjustments reduce the sequence to 4*1*3*5*1.5*2*1.5*1.5*1.5 which comes to 607.5 weapon cost, 795.5 model cost, and 1005 Formation cost.

We probably should not reduce the stats any further because doing so would bring them below the stats of the Daemon Prince of Tzeentch's weapon (50cm, 1 attack, 3+, -4, Penetrating +1, Physical Psychic) and the master should not be weaker than the servant.

Personally, I'd leave the Range at 75cm even if TSM and Penetrating are reduced (to -4 and +1 respectively). This would bring weapon cost to 911.3, model cost to 1099, and formation cost to 1385.

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Chaos Powers
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2014 8:40 pm 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
In my view the Beam really should be significantly better than most Psychic Powers because he IS a Greater Daemon and they are not, and a GD of the deity of Sorcery no less.

Still, that said, it doesn't hurt to look at lower stats.

With Range reduced to 50cm, TSM reduced to -4, and Penetrating reduced to +1, changes are as follows:
_ Range of 50cm reduces the Range modifier from *1.5 to *1
_ TSM of -4 reduces the TSM modifier from *6 to *5
_ If Penetrating is reduced to +1, we really should return to valuing it as a non-Titan weapon, which means its modifier remains at *2
These adjustments reduce the sequence to 4*1*3*5*1.5*2*1.5*1.5*1.5 which comes to 607.5 weapon cost, 795.5 model cost, and 1005 Formation cost.

We probably should not reduce the stats any further because doing so would bring them below the stats of the Daemon Prince of Tzeentch's weapon (50cm, 1 attack, 3+, -4, Penetrating +1, Physical Psychic) and the master should not be weaker than the servant.

Personally, I'd leave the Range at 75cm even if TSM and Penetrating are reduced (to -4 and +1 respectively). This would bring weapon cost to 911.3, model cost to 1099, and formation cost to 1385.


Hi!

A range of 75cm, -4 TSM, pentrating +1 physical psychic looks about right in power and cost. I will use these stats and cost for the platinum version of Magnus.

Thanks!

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Chaos Powers
PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 11:30 pm 
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Argh, the same error I made on the Orks also affected the Tzeentch Automations. Fixed now.

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Chaos Powers
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 7:03 am 
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__ Model Values for Plan: __ A _____ B ______ C _____ D ______ E _____ F
_ Khorne
Bloodletter: ______________ 58 ____ 58 _____ 58 ____ 58 _____ 63 ____ 63
Chaos Marine: _____________ 44 ____ 35 _____ 44 ____ 35 _____ 48.5 __ 39.5
Cultist Fanatic: __________ 21.5 __ 21.5 ___ 21.5 __ 21.5 ___ 26.5 __ 26.5
Khorne Berserker: _________ 59 ____ 59 _____ 59 ____ 59 _____ 83 ____ 83
Fleshhound: _______________ 31 ____ 31 _____ 31 ____ 31 _____ 35 ____ 35
Juggernaut: _______________ 45 ____ 44.25 __ 45 ____ 44.25 __ 52.5 __ 51.75
Blood Slaughterer: ________ 55.05 _ 44.93 __ 55.05 _ 44.93 __ 57.55 _ 47.43
Daemon Prince of Khorne: _ 106 ___ 106 ____ 106 ___ 106 ____ 114 ___ 114
Blood Reaper: ____________ 104 ____ 62 ____ 104 ____ 62 ____ 108 ____ 66
Brass Scorpion: __________ 124 ____ 97 ____ 124 ____ 97 ____ 145 ___ 118
Cauldron of Blood: _______ 139.5 _ 139.5 __ 105.8 _ 105.8 __ 144.5 _ 110.8
Death Dealer: ____________ 121.4 _ 101.6 __ 121.4 _ 101.6 __ 128.4 _ 108.6
Defiler – Khorne: ________ 132 ___ 118.5 __ 109.5 __ 96 ____ 156 ___ 120
Tower of Skulls: _________ 144.2 __ 90.04 _ 144.2 __ 90.04 _ 149.2 __ 95.04
Cannon of Khorne: ________ 324 ___ 324 ____ 174 ___ 174 ____ 324 ___ 174
Doom Blaster: ____________ 196.1 _ 193 ____ 124.1 _ 121 ____ 200.1 _ 125
Bloodthirster: ___________ 300 ___ 300 ____ 300 ___ 300 ____ 660 ___ 660
Primarch Angron: _________ 229 ___ 229 ____ 229 ___ 229 ____ 493 ___ 493
Banelord: ________________ 607.6 _ 585.1 __ 554.8 _ 532.3 __ 845.6 _ 770.3
Banelord, Command: _______ 744.4 _ 710.7 __ 665.2 _ 631.5 __ 996.4 _ 883.5
Lord of Battle: __________ 414.8 _ 386.5 __ 414.8 _ 386.5 __ 774.8 _ 746.5

_ Nurgle
Beast of Nurgle: __________ 82 ____ 82 _____ 82 ____ 82 _____ 97 ____ 97
Chaos Marine: _____________ 44 ____ 35 _____ 44 ____ 35 _____ 48.5 __ 39.5
Magi (Nurgle): ____________ 65.85 _ 45.6 ___ 58.43 _ 38.18 __ 66.85 _ 39.18
Nurgling Swarm: ___________ 26 ____ 26 _____ 26 ____ 26 _____ 30 ____ 30
Plaguebearer: ____________ 114 ___ 114 ____ 114 ___ 114 ____ 138 ___ 138
Plague Marine: ____________ 46 ____ 37 _____ 46 ____ 37 _____ 49 ____ 40
Chaos Spawn: ______________ 46.33 _ 44.83 __ 46.33 _ 44.83 __ 46.33 _ 44.83
Daemon Prince of Nurgle: _ 117.2 __ 96.95 _ 113.6 __ 93.35 _ 123.2 __ 99.35
Shambler: _________________ 71.25 _ 62.25 __ 65.63 _ 56.63 __ 71.25 _ 56.63
Breath of Nurgle: ________ 308 ___ 308 ____ 173 ___ 173 ____ 320 ___ 185
Defiler – Nurgle: ________ 129 ____ 97.5 __ 129 ____ 97.5 __ 177 ___ 145.5
Contagion Plague Engine: _ 102 ____ 97.5 ___ 75 ____ 70.5 __ 108 ____ 76.5
Great Unclean One: _______ 296 ___ 296 ____ 248 ___ 248 ____ 576 ___ 528
Primarch Mortarion: ______ 216.8 _ 195.2 __ 216.8 _ 195.2 __ 436.8 _ 415.2
Plague Tower: ____________ 854.2 _ 821.8 __ 722.2 _ 689.8 _ 1430 __ 1266
Bubonis: ________________ 1540 __ 1425 ___ 1120 __ 1005 ___ 2152 __ 1617

_ Slaanesh
Chaos Marine: _______________ 44 ____ 35 ____ 44 ____ 35 ____ 48.5 __ 39.5
Daemonette: _________________ 50 ____ 50 ____ 50 ____ 50 ____ 58 ____ 58
Fiend: ______________________ 19 ____ 19 ____ 19 ____ 19 ____ 24 ____ 24
Magi (Slaanesh): ____________ 85 ____ 85 ____ 54.5 __ 54.5 __ 86 ____ 55.5
Noise Marine: _______________ 74 ____ 74 ____ 50 ____ 50 ____ 77 ____ 53
Beast Rider: ________________ 21 ____ 20.5 __ 21 ____ 20.5 __ 27 ____ 26.5
Daemon Prince of Slaanesh: _ 154 ___ 109 ___ 154 ____ 109 __ 159 ___ 114
Defiler – Slaanesh: ________ 159 ___ 118.5 _ 147 ___ 106.5 _ 171 ___ 118.5
Hell Strider: ______________ 109 ____ 88 ___ 109 ____ 88 ___ 127 ___ 106
Hell Scourge: ______________ 165.1 _ 132 ___ 165.1 _ 132 ___ 198.1 _ 165
Hell Knight: _______________ 167.1 _ 140 ___ 167.1 _ 140 ___ 200.1 _ 173
Keeper of Secrets: _________ 242 ___ 242 ___ 215 ___ 215 ___ 462 ___ 435
Primarch Fulgrim: __________ 213 ___ 213 ___ 200.5 _ 200.5 _ 433 ___ 420.5
Altar of Slaanesh: _________ 242 ___ 242 ___ 192 ___ 192 ___ 266 ___ 216
Questor: ___________________ 483.1 _ 423 ___ 483.1 _ 423 ___ 588.1 _ 528
Subjugator: ________________ 483.1 _ 414 ___ 483.1 _ 414 ___ 588.1 _ 519

_ Tzeentch
Automation: _________________ 66 ____ 57 _____ 66 ____ 57 _____ 69 ____ 60
Chaos Marine: _______________ 44 ____ 35 _____ 44 ____ 35 _____ 48.5 __ 39.5
Flamer: _____________________ 16 ____ 13.75 __ 16 ____ 13.75 __ 18 ____ 15.75
Horror, Blue: _______________ 10 ____ 10 _____ 10 ____ 10 _____ 11 ____ 11
Horror, Pink: _______________ 54 ____ 54 _____ 54 ____ 54 _____ 58 ____ 58
Magi (Tzeentch): ___________ 192.9 _ 192.9 ___ 83.97 _ 83.97 _ 193.9 __ 84.97
Disc Rider: _________________ 36 ____ 30 _____ 36 ____ 30 _____ 44 ____ 38
Psychic Screamer: ___________ 47 ____ 47 _____ 47 ____ 47 _____ 46 ____ 46
Daemon Prince of Tzeentch: _ 165 ____ 97.5 __ 165 ____ 97.5 __ 169 ___ 101.5
Defiler – Tzeentch: ________ 162 ___ 108 ____ 150 ____ 96 ____ 174 ___ 108
Doom Wing: _________________ 216 ___ 216 ____ 193.5 _ 193.5 __ 336 ___ 313.5
Fire Lord: _________________ 413.6 _ 389.6 __ 386.3 _ 362.3 __ 470.6 _ 419.3
Silver Tower: ______________ 151.5 _ 100.5 __ 151.5 _ 100.5 __ 163.5 _ 112.5
Warp Palace: _______________ 609.6 _ 400.9 __ 608.5 _ 399.7 __ 801.6 _ 591.7
Lord of Change: ____________ 469.6 _ 318.4 __ 469.6 _ 318.4 __ 963.6 _ 542.4
Primarch Magnus, base: ____ 3023 ___ 896.8 _ 3023 ___ 896.8 _ 3243 __ 1117
Primarch Magnus, nerfed: __ 1282 ___ 461.4 _ 1282 ___ 461.4 _ 1502 ___ 681.4
P.Magnus, serious nerfed: __ 871.4 _ 358.9 __ 871.4 _ 358.9 _ 1091 ___ 578.9
Warp Vortex: _______________ 188 ____ 92 ____ 188 ____ 92 ____ 188 ____ 92
Skylok: ___________________ 1181 __ 1036 ___ 1177 __ 1032 ___ 1461 __ 1312

Primarch Magnus' Beam of Power variations:
Base: ___ 100cm, 1, 2+, -6, P+3, IC, Destroys Buildings
Nerfed: __ 75cm, 1, 2+, -5, P+2, IC, Damages Buildings
S. Nerf: _ 75cm, 1, 2+, -4, P+1, IC, Damages Buildings


_ Chaos Power list formations
_Khorne
_ Company
Bloodthirster: _____________ 380 _ 380 _ 380 _ 380 __ 830 __ 830
Primarch Angron: ___________ 290 _ 290 _ 290 _ 290 __ 620 __ 620
World Eaters Century: ______ 425 _ 370 _ 425 _ 370 __ 520 __ 465
Lord of Battle +2 weapons: _ 525 _ 485 _ 525 _ 485 __ 975 __ 940
__ Chain Fist: ______________ 35 __ 35 __ 35 __ 35 __ 195 __ 195
__ Death Storm: ____________ 135 __ 35 _ 135 __ 35 __ 135 ___ 35
__ Doom Burner: ____________ 205 __ 50 _ 205 __ 50 __ 205 ___ 50
__ Hell Blade: ______________ 30 __ 30 __ 30 __ 30 __ 165 __ 165
Banelord with Command: _____ 940 _ 895 _ 840 _ 795 _ 1255 _ 1115

_ Support
Berserkers: ________________ 210 _ 210 _ 210 _ 210 _ 300 _ 300
Bloodletters: ______________ 225 _ 225 _ 225 _ 255 _ 245 _ 245
Blood Slaughterer: _________ 155 _ 130 _ 155 _ 130 _ 165 _ 135
Cannon of Khorne: __________ 715 _ 715 _ 385 _ 385 _ 715 _ 385
Cultist Fanatics: ___________ 90 __ 90 __ 90 __ 90 _ 110 _ 110
Defilers: __________________ 345 _ 310 _ 285 _ 250 _ 405 _ 310
Daemonic Engines, select three:
__ Blood Reaper each: _______ 90 __ 55 __ 90 __ 55 __ 95 __ 55
__ Brass Scorpion each: ____ 105 __ 85 _ 105 __ 85 _ 125 _ 100
__ Cauldron of Blood each: _ 120 _ 120 __ 90 __ 90 _ 125 __ 95
__ Death Dealer each: ______ 105 __ 90 _ 105 __ 90 _ 110 __ 95
__ Tower of Skulls each: ___ 125 __ 80 _ 125 __ 80 _ 130 __ 80
__ Doom Blaster each: ______ 170 _ 165 _ 110 _ 105 _ 175 _ 110
Fleshhounds: _______________ 120 _ 120 _ 120 _ 120 _ 135 _ 135
Juggernauts: _______________ 175 _ 175 _ 175 _ 175 _ 205 _ 200

_ Special
Mark of Khorne per model: _ 25 __ 25 __ 25 __ 25 __ varies by model
Banelord Titan, base: ____ 680 _ 655 _ 620 _ 595 __ 945 _ 865
Banelord with Command: ___ 835 _ 795 _ 745 _ 705 _ 1115 _ 990
Daemon Prince of Khorne: _ 120 _ 120 _ 120 _ 120 __ 130 _ 130


_Nurgle
_ Company
Great Unclean One: ___ 375 __ 375 __ 310 __ 310 __ 725 __ 665
Primarch Mortarion: __ 275 __ 245 __ 275 __ 245 __ 550 __ 525
Death Guard Century: _ 385 __ 310 __ 385 __ 310 __ 420 __ 345
Plague Tower: _______ 1075 _ 1035 __ 910 __ 870 _ 1800 _ 1595
Bubonis Titan: ______ 1940 _ 1795 _ 1410 _ 1265 _ 2710 _ 2040

_ Support
Beast of Nurgle: __________ 320 _ 320 _ 320 _ 320 _ 380 _ 380
Breath of Nurgle: _________ 740 _ 740 _ 415 _ 415 _ 770 _ 445
Chaos Spawn: ______________ 195 _ 190 _ 195 _ 190 _ 195 _ 190
Contagion Plague Engines: _ 265 _ 255 _ 195 _ 185 _ 280 _ 200
Defilers: _________________ 335 _ 255 _ 335 _ 255 _ 460 _ 380
Nurgling Swarms: __________ 100 _ 100 _ 100 _ 100 _ 115 _ 115
Plaguebearers: ____________ 445 _ 445 _ 445 _ 445 _ 540 _ 540
Plague Marine: ____________ 165 _ 135 _ 165 _ 135 _ 175 _ 145
Shamblers: ________________ 185 _ 160 _ 170 _ 145 _ 185 _ 145

_ Special
Mark of Nurgle per model: _ 25 ___ 25 ___ 25 ___ 25 ___ 25 ___ 25
Bubonis Titan: __________ 1725 _ 1595 _ 1255 _ 1125 _ 2410 _ 1810
Daemon Prince of Nurgle: _ 130 __ 110 __ 125 __ 105 __ 140 __ 110
Nurgle Magi: ______________ 75 ___ 50 ___ 65 ___ 45 ___ 75 ___ 45


_Slaanesh
_ Company
Keeper of Secrets: __________ 305 __ 305 __ 270 __ 270 __ 580 __ 550
Primarch Fulgrim: ___________ 270 __ 270 __ 255 __ 255 __ 545 __ 530
Altar of Slaanesh: __________ 305 __ 305 __ 240 __ 240 __ 335 __ 270
Emperor's Children Century: _ 465 __ 415 __ 400 __ 345 __ 500 __ 380
House Devine Knights: ______ 1365 _ 1160 _ 1365 _ 1160 _ 1650 _ 1440
House Devine Scourges: _____ 1360 _ 1140 _ 1360 _ 1140 _ 1640 _ 1420

_ Support
Beast Riders: ___ 75 ___ 75 ___ 75 ___ 75 ___ 95 ___ 95
Daemonettes: ___ 195 __ 195 __ 195 __ 195 __ 225 __ 225
Defilers: ______ 415 __ 310 __ 380 __ 275 __ 445 __ 310
Fiends: _________ 75 ___ 75 ___ 75 ___ 75 ___ 95 ___ 95
Hell Strider: __ 285 __ 230 __ 285 __ 230 __ 330 __ 275
Hell Scourge: __ 430 __ 345 __ 430 __ 345 __ 515 __ 430
Hell Knight: ___ 435 __ 365 __ 435 __ 365 __ 520 __ 450
Noise Marines: _ 265 __ 265 __ 180 __ 180 __ 275 __ 190
Questors: _____ 1355 _ 1185 _ 1355 _ 1185 _ 1645 _ 1480
Subjugators: __ 1355 _ 1160 _ 1355 _ 1160 _ 1645 _ 1455

_ Special
Mark of Slaanesh per model: _ 25 __ 25 __ 25 __ 25 __ 25 __ 25
Daemon Prince of Slaanesh: _ 170 _ 120 _ 170 _ 120 _ 180 _ 130
Slaanesh Magi: ______________ 95 __ 95 __ 60 __ 60 __ 95 __ 60


_Tzeentch
_ Company
Lord of Change: _______________ 590 __ 400 __ 590 __ 400 __ 875 __ 685
Primarch Magnus, Base: _______ 3810 _ 1130 _ 3810 _ 1130 _ 4085 _ 1405
Primarch Magnus, nerfed: _____ 1615 __ 580 _ 1615 __ 580 _ 1890 __ 860
P.Magnus serious nerfed: _____ 1100 __ 450 _ 1100 __ 450 _ 1375 __ 730
Thousand Sons Century BP 5+6: _ 725 __ 605 __ 725 __ 605 __ 775 __ 655
Warp Palace: __________________ 770 __ 505 __ 765 __ 505 _ 1010 __ 745

_ Support
Automation: _______ 490 _ 420 _ 490 _ 420 _ 510 _ 445
Defilers: _________ 420 _ 280 _ 390 _ 250 _ 450 _ 280
Disc Riders: ______ 130 _ 110 _ 130 _ 110 _ 160 _ 135
Doom Wings: _______ 560 _ 560 _ 505 _ 505 _ 875 _ 815
Flamers: ___________ 60 __ 55 __ 60 __ 55 __ 70 __ 60
Fire Lord: ________ 540 _ 505 _ 500 _ 470 _ 610 _ 545
Horrors: __________ 210 _ 210 _ 210 _ 210 _ 225 _ 225
Psychic Screamers: _ 50 __ 50 __ 50 __ 50 __ 50 __ 50
Silver Towers: ____ 195 _ 130 _ 195 _ 130 _ 215 _ 145
Warp Vortex: ______ 265 _ 130 _ 265 _ 130 _ 265 _ 130

_ Special
Mark of Tzeentch per model: _ 55 ___ 55 ___ 55 ___ 55 ___ 60 ___ 60
Skylok: ___________________ 1325 _ 1160 _ 1320 _ 1155 _ 1635 _ 1470
Daemon Prince of Tzeentch: _ 185 __ 110 __ 185 __ 110 __ 190 __ 115
Tzeentch Magi: _____________ 215 __ 215 ___ 95 ___ 95 __ 215 ___ 95



With these adjustments, I say we just go back to the 'base' stats for Primarch Magnus, as he is no longer the most expensive model or formation for the Chaos Powers. That honor goes to Bubonis.

I am planning to do a list of the cost for a Mark of Khorne for every formation that it can be applied to, but that will have to wait for a time.

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Chaos Powers
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 4:57 pm 
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Hi!

I for one have no problem with the base Magnus cost. He is seriously overpowered IMO. I don't think I have ever played a game or witness one with chaos NOT bringing him to the battle. That tells me the unit is too good.

I consider Magnus just as useful, if not more so that many titans a he stands.

It will be nice to see a chaos game with other demons and primarchs. :)

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Chaos Powers
PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2014 8:12 am 
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Hmm, seems I forgot about our old friend the Banelord Titan when I did the tweak runs for CAF. It has two weapons that can adjust its CAF. Putting the Banelord's two weapons through that adjustment lowers the cost of a Banelord formation by 5 points. The cost of the Banelord with Command does not change.

Lord of Battles weapons are now:
__ Chain Fist: ______________ 35 __ 35 __ 35 __ 35 ___ 35 ___ 35
__ Death Storm: ____________ 135 __ 35 _ 135 __ 35 __ 135 ___ 35
__ Doom Burner: ____________ 205 __ 50 _ 205 __ 50 __ 205 ___ 50
__ Hell Blade: ______________ 30 __ 30 __ 30 __ 30 ___ 30 ___ 30

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