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Points formula values for Orks

 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Orks
PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 2:59 pm 
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Hi, I just wanted to flag up about the Ork rule whereby if an Ork player wants to field 3+ clans he will need a Warboss, Warlord or Gargant, all of which are relatively expensive units.

It was always the case that you'd have to buy one of these pricey units but I thought it was worth mentioning here because several other forces aren't obliged to buy an expensive unit.

I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with the costings, more raising the point that when we are putting the points costings system together to level the playing field, is it level when certain factions are forced into making certain choices?

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Orks
PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 4:14 pm 
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The Bissler wrote:
Hi, I just wanted to flag up about the Ork rule whereby if an Ork player wants to field 3+ clans he will need a Warboss, Warlord or Gargant, all of which are relatively expensive units.

It was always the case that you'd have to buy one of these pricey units but I thought it was worth mentioning here because several other forces aren't obliged to buy an expensive unit.

I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with the costings, more raising the point that when we are putting the points costings system together to level the playing field, is it level when certain factions are forced into making certain choices?


Hi!

Given the across the board reductions in cost of their units, I'd say the need for an expensive unit (you could always go 3 clans or less if you don't want it) for a 3+ clan force is of no real practical impact.

All armies have some limitation, be it cost, command radius limitations or having to buy certain units. It's a matter of what limitations the player is willing to deal with.

Since the formula permits orks to be truly large horde armies, having to buy a single costly unit isn't much of a burden. You could still do it "cheaply" getting the warboss on foot or a gargant (the newest cost went down again and probably the most cost effective measure). Its not like any of the options are THAT costly (mid 600's or less) compared to truly costly units in other army lists.

As far as army lists go, the orks (like the IG) came out on top due to the formula. If this is the kind of problem they have, its a good problem to have. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Orks
PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 6:24 pm 
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Good points The Bissler and primarch. That is an odd restriction, though as primarch points out due to the cost reductions of just about all Ork Clan formations, it should not be a heavy burden. Still, perhaps there should be some small cost adjustment for it. I'm just not sure where.

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Orks
PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 7:04 pm 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
Good points The Bissler and primarch. That is an odd restriction, though as primarch points out due to the cost reductions of just about all Ork Clan formations, it should not be a heavy burden. Still, perhaps there should be some small cost adjustment for it. I'm just not sure where.


Hi!

Another thing would be if such restrictions are even needed anymore given the point formulas existence.

Let us keep in mind many of these things in place for Gold were balancing mechanisms due to the inherent flaws of the old pricing system.

The orks in particular had several of these such restrictions created directly caused by the imbalances in the old pricing system. Things like not being able to repeat clans and warbosses and such for 3+ clans or more were all byproducts of that fact.

If I were using the formula based costs to play under Gold rules I would not use any such restrictions anymore since they no longer have a function under the new paradigm.

I believe this is an offshoot of the greater issue when using the new formula is how many Gold precepts are invalidated by it.

When the formula finally goes "live", I think it needs to be accompanied by some explanation of what old Gold restrictions would not be needed.

That is a gold problem though, since those restrcitions will be eliminated for NE6.

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Orks
PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 7:26 pm 
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Actually, I'd keep most, if not all, of the stated restrictions for Orks because it adds to their 'flavor' as an army. That's just my opinion, so I guess we'd have to have public discussion about what to keep or dispose of.

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Orks
PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 7:35 pm 
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Whether or not the old restrictions should be kept is kind of the point I was getting at (even if I didn't say it).

I agree that while pricier it isn't too big a deal for the Orks to add such a unit in itself. It is an issue though when you consider that the likes of the IG and other forces have no such problem.

I just thought it was an interesting point to raise but I can't say it is something I will lose much sleep over.

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Orks
PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2015 8:41 pm 
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Hi!

Keep in mind most if not all of the restrictions were not in the original game. They were put in place due to the perceived imbalances and abuse the original pricing system and their exploitation.

One of the byproducts of the formula and its related balance is that many of those things are no longer needed.

I don't particularly view any of them as "distinctive" for the flavor of the army, since the way the army is composed (mobs) and the limited command radius is what makes them "orky".

In short Bissler, the answer to your question is: "dump them".

If your playing gold rules with the new formula costs I would not use them.

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Orks
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 6:12 am 
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Hmm, good point about those restrictions. Yeah, ignore them if you like. Still, what good is a proper WAAAAAGH! without a Warboss or Warlord? ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Orks
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 4:52 pm 
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OP updated to V0.4. This update includes fixing the errors I found in the calculations of a few Gargant weapons.

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Orks
PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2015 7:42 pm 
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Hi!

Sweet!

Looks like I may get in one more update before my vacation end. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Orks
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 6:24 am 
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primarch wrote:
Hi!

Keep in mind most if not all of the restrictions were not in the original game. They were put in place due to the perceived imbalances and abuse the original pricing system and their exploitation.

One of the byproducts of the formula and its related balance is that many of those things are no longer needed.

I don't particularly view any of them as "distinctive" for the flavor of the army, since the way the army is composed (mobs) and the limited command radius is what makes them "orky".

In short Bissler, the answer to your question is: "dump them".

If your playing gold rules with the new formula costs I would not use them.

Primarch


Would that apply then to Chaos? In other words, Chaos unleashed is now a reality?

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Orks
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 6:45 am 
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That's debatable. With Chaos it's an issue of the Army lists themselves (and the differences between Codex and Standard lists), rather than rules within the Army list as for Orks.

Ultimately, discuss what you want to do with your opponent and if you are both fine with it, then you should be good to play it that way. Heck, everything is optional at this point.

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Orks
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 6:54 pm 
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OP updated again. Found and fixed a small error in the calculation of the Gargant Close Combat weapons.

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Orks
PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2015 8:25 pm 
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The Bissler wrote:
primarch wrote:
Hi!

Keep in mind most if not all of the restrictions were not in the original game. They were put in place due to the perceived imbalances and abuse the original pricing system and their exploitation.

One of the byproducts of the formula and its related balance is that many of those things are no longer needed.

I don't particularly view any of them as "distinctive" for the flavor of the army, since the way the army is composed (mobs) and the limited command radius is what makes them "orky".

In short Bissler, the answer to your question is: "dump them".

If your playing gold rules with the new formula costs I would not use them.

Primarch


Would that apply then to Chaos? In other words, Chaos unleashed is now a reality?


Hi!

That's a very good question. Since ALL these separations in Gold are ENTIRELY artificial. As in we put them in, once more due to imbalances in the traditional cost structure. Since certain combinations were deemed "overpowered".

My inclination at this point is that all army construction restrictions introduced in Gold, that did not exist previously are moot. In other words don't use them if your using the new cost values.

The ultimate arbiter of balance now is the formula, we don't need to mess with army organization for balance since we are no longer limited by the the old/imbalanced price scheme.

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Points formula values for Orks
PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2015 1:58 pm 
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OP updated for V0.41

Added Morale and Command/Orders adjustments to Model value to make variable formations easier to create.

Removed discounts for Company and Special formations.

Fixed error with Renegade Mekboy Special formation values. I had previously forgotten to take their BP into account.

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