Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 186 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 ... 13  Next

Army List: Space Marines

 Post subject: Re: Army List: Space Marines
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 6:30 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Mon Sep 02, 2013 7:41 am
Posts: 484
Location: Columbus, Ohio USA
I can't remember if I have chimed in on this or not, but I for one am in favor of keeping the army lists reasonably up to date with the current 40K codexes, otherwise you will end up isolating the player base and making it impossible to bring in new people.

The alternative is to make Primarch happy and start from scratch with not just a new rules set, but a new universe with our own factions and background and have lists for the GW armies as "unofficial" expansions.

_________________
Thanks,
Troy


Once Upon a Midnight Dreary....


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Army List: Space Marines
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:28 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 6:50 pm
Posts: 1476
Mattman wrote:
Iterator wrote:
Mattman wrote:
The Redeemer (and Crusader) are also armed with Frag Launchers which are meant to fire a load of frag grenades into the enemy when the occupants dismount to assault. To represent this I gave them the ability to disrupt some nearby enemy models in combat.


The Frag Launchers seem fiddly and add book-keeping. I would just give the Redeemer +1 CAF and call it good.


But the launchers aren't meant to make the Redeemer better in combat, they are meant to suppress the enemy while your guys pile out and launch into combat. The land raider itself isn't meant to get into combat but rather support the troops.
Not sure why you think they are fiddly, there are plenty of 1 shot weapons. You charge the land raider forward, fire the launchers to annoy the enemy and then dismount your troops who charge into combat. Seems simple to me.

I suppose an alternative would be something along the lines of:

Whenever a stand dismounts from a Redeemer or Crusader it gains +1 CAF for the turn.

Not a wholly accurate representation of the ability, but possibly cleaner.

Matt


While I'm normally fine with book-keeping, the bonus to CAF for disembarking troops would probably be the better way to go. Much simpler and easier to deal with.

_________________
Net Epic Coordinator


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Army List: Space Marines
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 9:27 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am
Posts: 27034
Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA
Mattman wrote:
Iterator wrote:
Mattman wrote:
The Redeemer (and Crusader) are also armed with Frag Launchers which are meant to fire a load of frag grenades into the enemy when the occupants dismount to assault. To represent this I gave them the ability to disrupt some nearby enemy models in combat.


The Frag Launchers seem fiddly and add book-keeping. I would just give the Redeemer +1 CAF and call it good.


But the launchers aren't meant to make the Redeemer better in combat, they are meant to suppress the enemy while your guys pile out and launch into combat. The land raider itself isn't meant to get into combat but rather support the troops.
Not sure why you think they are fiddly, there are plenty of 1 shot weapons. You charge the land raider forward, fire the launchers to annoy the enemy and then dismount your troops who charge into combat. Seems simple to me.

I suppose an alternative would be something along the lines of:

Whenever a stand dismounts from a Redeemer or Crusader it gains +1 CAF for the turn.

Not a wholly accurate representation of the ability, but possibly cleaner.

Matt


Hi!

Liking the stats Mattman! ;D

I think the second application of the Redeemer ability is better. It's simpler and easier to understand, if not wholly accurate, but conveys the intent well. :)

Primarch

_________________
Primarch


The Primarchload
Magnetized Titans Tutorial
Net Epic Gold
Heresy Rules


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Army List: Space Marines
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:29 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2012 11:29 am
Posts: 780
Daft point can we have Predator and Land Speeder companies in with the Marines? In my opinion they make far better sense here than with the Imperial Guard.

_________________
Rightyus Indergestyun I
Stabb-Blasta II

Verum Irae II


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Army List: Space Marines
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:35 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am
Posts: 27034
Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA
Llamahead wrote:
Daft point can we have Predator and Land Speeder companies in with the Marines? In my opinion they make far better sense here than with the Imperial Guard.


Hi!

I agree. Been doing that as a house rule for years.

Is it that way in modern 40k?

Primarch

_________________
Primarch


The Primarchload
Magnetized Titans Tutorial
Net Epic Gold
Heresy Rules


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Army List: Space Marines
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 12:00 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 12:16 am
Posts: 1003
primarch wrote:
Llamahead wrote:
Daft point can we have Predator and Land Speeder companies in with the Marines? In my opinion they make far better sense here than with the Imperial Guard.


Hi!

I agree. Been doing that as a house rule for years.

Is it that way in modern 40k?

Primarch


I think that was raised a while a go, at least I am sure I mentioned something about the predator company.
In apocalypse there are formations of up to 5 predators and ones of multiple speeder's, so I wouldn't see why their shouldn't be companies of them in epic.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Army List: Space Marines
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 12:01 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 12:16 am
Posts: 1003
Plus guard don't have preds and speeders in their lists anymore, they were dropped long ago.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Army List: Space Marines
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 12:21 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 12:16 am
Posts: 1003
And amusingly, guard speeder squadrons all have 5 models each, considering the conversation we had above about the marine squadrons having 3! Plus the guard tornado has more firepower than the marine one (it has an extra heavy bolter shot), guess someone didn't cross check when putting the gold lists together.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Army List: Space Marines
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 4:04 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 12:16 am
Posts: 1003
Okay guys and gals,

Round 2 of Mattmans Marine Motorised Mobile Review:

Attachment:
SM Vehicle Variants 131108.JPG
SM Vehicle Variants 131108.JPG [ 191.92 KiB | Viewed 941 times ]


I started off by tweaking the Assault Cannons on those variants that have them so they have less shots, but a little save mod as they can go through armour with the rending rule in 40k. Also means less dice to roll.
I have also removed the PD off some, as in most cases the extra weapons take up the space on those vehicles where the Heavy Bolters would normally sit.
I have also tweaked the rules for Frag Launchers as per the post above.
I have added the original Land Raider and Predator stats (coloured grey) to give some comparison to the new units.

Okay first up, the Ares. It is a bit like the Redeemer as it has Assault Cannons and sponson flame weapons. The Heavy Flamers aren't as powerful as the Flamestorm, so knocked the To Hit and TSM down. It also mounts the Demolisher off the vindicator, so copied those stats over. No transport capacity and no PD as it doesn't have room for either. The Ares is usually a lot more heavily armoured than a normal Land Raider as it mounts a full face dozer blade like the Vindicator, so improved the save. There is the potential to knock its move down by 5cm (again, like the vindicator), but I haven't done it yet.
Much like the Helios, this variant has the capability of two vehicles in one package, so 350 for 3 seems a fair price, it is cheaper than buying Redeemers and Vindicators separately, but you run the risk of putting all your eggs in one basket.

Next, the Crusader. Although this was in the gold list (albeit as a Black Templar unit), I have tweaked the stats and it should be available to all.
Again, a slight variation on the Redeemer, keeps the transport, assault cannon and frag launchers, but I have ditched the Multi Melta It is not a fixed weapon unlike the PD giving heavy bolters on the normal Land Raider, all the Land Raiders have the option of taking the Multi Melta upgrade, so just doing away with it avoids plenty of issues.
Kept the PD at 4, but I have thought about upping it to 6 since it has 6 twinlinked Bolters.
Points wise they are in a the same ball park as the Redeemer and normal Land Raider, so 250 for 3, (plus it makes more sense after stripping the Multi Melta off).

Helios next. Stats are almost identical to what is in the gold book. Only changes I have made are to drop the PD (as I discuss above) and give it a small transport capacity since they can still carry 5 marines. Not sure how useful that will be, but it keeps it true to the fluff. Like the Ares, it is two vehicles in one with some risks and it was discussed in a previous post about the points of the Helios, so 350 for 3.

Next is a strange beast, the Prometheus.
According to the rules and fluff, this is command and control vehicle with banks of high powered sensors, communication, tracking and radar equipment. It basically sacrifices all the the usual potent weaponry that you would see on a Land Raider for this equipment. Armament wise it mounts 4 twin linked Heavy Bolters and normally I would think 2 shots at 5+ to hit would cover that, but because it can automatically track targets with unerring accuracy, even when the targets are moving at high speed, I have bumped the to hit to 4+ and given it the Quickdraw ability. Being a specialist command vehicle, I have given it the usual Command and HQ abilities as well as another ability I have called C3, to cover all of its specialist sensor gear.
The C3 ability give the player a couple of bonuses. Firstly due to the equipment continuously monitoring the battle and communicating with all units, it can make split second command decisions based on predicted battle simulations, therefore I have said that just before you activate a formation and reveal its order, it allows you to switch that order for a different one. That way you can see what your opponent is doing and change an order to try and counter what they are doing. Haven't added it yet, but thinking of adding the caveat that you can't use this ability to make a unit Snap Fire when they don't already have First Fire orders.
The second part of the C3 ability is that it provides detailed targeting data for artillery strikes, so it gives you chance to re-roll the scatter dice from a barrage or artillery.
Due to the rare and special nature of these vehicles, I think they should a special formation choice and currently I am thinking they should cost 150pts for a single model.

As well as the Prometheus there is a Rhino variant called the Damocles. It does exactly the same in terms of abilities, but doesn't have any weapons or transport capacity. Again, this should be a special formation of a single model and think it is most probably worth around 75pts.

Next up we move onto Predator variants.

The first is the Annihilator. This swaps the turret weapon for a twin linked Lascannon (same stats as a Land Raider sponson) and keeps the standard sponson Lascannons. With one more shot, more speed, less armour and no transport capacity compared to a Land Raider, I think this variant is on par points wise, so 250 for 3.

The Destructor keeps the Autocannon turret and ditches the Lascannon sponsons for Heavy Bolters. Now I could potentially make the Heavy Bolters a PD(1), but to keep its look in line with the other Predators, I have just kept them as normal weapons. 2 shots at 5+ to hit with no save mod makes the variant worse stats wise the the normal one, so I am thinking of just 150pts for 3 for the Destructor.

These two Predator variants also tie in with the most recent models, one which has a Lascannon turret and two Lascannon sponsons and the other which has the Autocannon turret and Heavy Bolter sponson.

Thoughts?

Next up I will be looking at fliers!

Matt


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Army List: Space Marines
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 5:02 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am
Posts: 27034
Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA
Hi!

Sweet! I'm really like these. :)

While this is still far ahead. I'm going to need you to tell me the modern names for some weapons when they get redone.

Primarch

_________________
Primarch


The Primarchload
Magnetized Titans Tutorial
Net Epic Gold
Heresy Rules


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Army List: Space Marines
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 5:14 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 12:16 am
Posts: 1003
I have been adding them when I can. It is less of a concern with Marines since many of the names have stayed the same. It affects the likes of Eldar more where weapons are similar to imperial equivalents but do have different names (Brightlance ≈ Lascannon, Fusion Weapons ≈ Melta Weapons, Star Weapons ≈ Plasma Weapons).


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Army List: Space Marines
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 6:40 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 4:22 pm
Posts: 17
Location: Minneapolis
Not sure the C3 vehicles are really needed as separate cards. The order swap ability is one that has previously been associated with special characters (Master of Ravenwing's 'Master Tactician' and similar) and the artillery control role is handled by the Forward Observer special card. May simply want to offer the Prometheus as an upgrade option to the standard Command Rhino (presumably the Damocles), much like the Eldar "Peregrine Option" special upgrade.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Army List: Space Marines
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 7:03 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 5:56 pm
Posts: 1115
Location: Finland
Like this a lot. Great work MM

_________________
Shapeways store: https://www.shapeways.com/shops/tinywares

Blogging about 6-15mm wargaming: http://www.lead-space.net


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Army List: Space Marines
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2013 7:40 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 12:16 am
Posts: 1003
Interesting thought on the upgrade option Iterator, but upgrade options are one aspect of the newer lists I am not keen on, we start going down that route and we start looking like EA when it comes to army building. But it is something to consider, especially for character options if implemented properly.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Army List: Space Marines
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 12:34 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2012 11:29 am
Posts: 780
3 Achilles would give an 18pt barrage template that strikes me as far too strong especially when the Helios which costs more would only give a 6 pt barrage template regardless of range

_________________
Rightyus Indergestyun I
Stabb-Blasta II

Verum Irae II


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 186 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 ... 13  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net