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Army List: Space Marines

 Post subject: Army List: Space Marines
PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 8:27 pm 
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Hi!

This thread is for posting on anything related to the revision of the Space Marine Book.

Those whom wish to supervise this list, please state so in your post and compile an editable document of the changes that are posted.

Thank you!

Primarch


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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Space Marines
PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 9:35 pm 
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As mentioned previously, I will keep an eye on the marines.

Matt


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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Space Marines
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:35 am 
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I will use this post and update it to capture all of the questions generated so people don't have to search through all the posts (as well as recording everything in a word doc.

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Matt


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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Space Marines
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:41 am 
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Proposed Rule Change

The Marine HQ for a Veteran company is only +3CAF compared to the Veterans +4. The other companies with "specialised" HQs have an HQ that is better than the normal men, (Assault HQ +4, to Assault Marines +3, Terminator HQ +7 to Terminators +6) so why not the Vets?

Possible Solution

Increase the CAF of the Veteran Marine HQ to +4.
I would say +5 but then it would give it the same CAF as the chapter master and I don't think that is right. Just making it in line with the Vets themselves is enough.

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Matt


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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Space Marines
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:58 am 
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Proposed Rule Change

The basic company costs are slightly unbalanced. 3 Battle companies costs you 2550 pts, whereas an Assault, Devastator and Tactical company costs 2500 for almost exactly the same models (you get an Assault HQ with +1CAF, +5cm and Jump Packs for that 50pts rather than a normal HQ).
Marines are built around their battle companies, so make it slightly more attractive to take them.

Proposal

Reduce the cost of Battle companies to 800pts.

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Matt


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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Space Marines
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:16 am 
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Proposed Rule Change

Veterans are under-costed (100 pts more than a tactical company for models that are twice as good) plus I think they could be tweaked stat wise to differentiate them more from normal tactical marines due to their improved equipment.

Proposal

Increase the cost of Veterans by 50 pts for a detachment (350pts) and 150pts for the company (1000pts).
Give them a TSM of -1 to represent the armour piercing rounds and melta weapons they carry.

Regards,

Matt


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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Space Marines
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 12:49 pm 
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Hi Mattman,

Most of this seems good to me. Increased Veteran HQ CAF makes sense as does your proposal to reduce the cost of Battle Companies. I never take them because I'd rather have specialist Assault & Devastator Companies. Given that the Marine force should be built around Battle Companies, a slight points reduction seems like a good idea.

The only thing I'm not so sure about is increasing the cost of a Veteran Company to 1000 points. It seems too high, especially when you consider that an Assault Company costs 750 for the same company except with +3 CAF and more limited weapons range. In addition, 1000 points is equal to the cost of a Terminator Company. I don't think veterans are as good as the Terminators, particularly when you factor in the Land Raiders.

Maybe just leave the detachment cost at 300 and increase the company cost by 50 points to 900? I know that means that you don't get anything other than an HQ for "free" at company level, but that is also the case for Tactical & Assault detachments. Other than the CAF for the HQ which I'd increase to +5, I'd leave the stats as are.

Cheers!

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Space Marines
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 1:54 pm 
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The Bissler wrote:
The only thing I'm not so sure about is increasing the cost of a Veteran Company to 1000 points. It seems too high, especially when you consider that an Assault Company costs 750 for the same company except with +3 CAF and more limited weapons range. In addition, 1000 points is equal to the cost of a Terminator Company. I don't think veterans are as good as the Terminators, particularly when you factor in the Land Raiders.

Maybe just leave the detachment cost at 300 and increase the company cost by 50 points to 900? I know that means that you don't get anything other than an HQ for "free" at company level, but that is also the case for Tactical & Assault detachments. Other than the CAF for the HQ which I'd increase to +5, I'd leave the stats as are.

Cheers!


Vets also have Elite, and +1 morale over the Assault Marines, so they get a re-roll in combat and are more likely to stay in the fight. So a lot better than assault marines.

Matt


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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Space Marines
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 2:10 pm 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QY8311Q1KJ8 ;D

Excellent point - yes, think you are right but agree in throwing in the -1 modifier as well to fully justify the points increase.

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Space Marines
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 2:14 pm 
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I think some rejigging of the relative points costs between tac, ass, dev and vet detachments and companies is in order. Mattman's vet suggestions seem fine to me (including the -1). Makes them semi-terminators, which is sort of the point of them.

If assault marines seem to cheap compared to the newly priced vets then perhaps a detachment increase to 275 (and company increase to 800) would help? It would further reinforce battle companies as the place where the best savings are made.


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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Space Marines
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 2:44 pm 
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Might get confusing with everything in one thread, but I've got a couple of suggestions:

Drop Pod support cards

Drop pods are for me a bit of a 'all your eggs in one basket' affair, which is odd beacuse, as individual APC sized vehicles (rather than a landing craft or Hellbore) they have no need to be. Could we perhaps have a support card (for about 100pts) that replaces the Rhinos of any infantry detachment with drop pods? It would also make fielding them easier these days, as you wouldn't have to track down 16 of the buggers.

Summary: Allow switching of a detachment's Rhinos to drop pods for a modest points cost

Special character travel options

At the moment special characters attached to certain companies get things like bikes or jump packs instead of Rhinos, this seems to be the sort of change any special character should be able to make. Bikes maybe a bit of a stretch (as they move so far) but i think any special character should be able to switch to a jump pack (and there are models for them as well).

Summary: Allow characters on special cards to ditch Rhinos and gain the jump pack rule for free.

Land Raider Helios pricing (copied from previous thread)

The Land Raider Helios is a little pricey for what it does, it essentially amalgamates the Whirlwind and Land Raider but costs more than the two of them put together, despite sacrificing the survivability that having two separate targets for the enemy gives you and the ability to transport troops. Literally the only reason to use Helios squadrons is if you absolutely have to have both weapon systems but don't have enough free support card slots to take them.

Summary: Apply discount to combined cost of Land Raider/Whirlwind, reducing cost to either 350 or 375.

Librarian psychic power duplication

Is there any need for Librarians to have both the limited "Purge Psyker" and "Destroy Daemon" powers, especially when both powers affect largely the same pool of targets? I haven't extensively checked, but there seems to be a lot more utility to the psykers of other factions. I'm sure either one of those two powers can be dropped, or they can both be combined into 1 power, with something more generally useful added instead.

Summary: Librarians should be made more generally useful rather than dedicated Psyker/Daemon hunters


Chapter-specific librarian powers

As a follow on from the last point, please don't replace the one all-purpose power when adding a chapter specific power. I'd happily lose both PP and DD from my Dark Angels librarian to gain Weaken Resolve, but the fact I have to lose Mind Blast means I don't bother with the librarian at all.

Summary: Do not lose Mind Blast when replacing psychic power, possibly allow player to choose which power is replaced


Dreadnoughts role and representation

Dreadnoughts seem currently like cheap infantry or mobile turrets rather than awe-inspiring, millennia-year-old sacred relics of the chapter. I think the least that can be done is add Elite (or possibly Inspirational) and I think some PD would be in order as well, to represent the grenade launchers and storm bolters that dreadnoughts usually have attached to them somewhere.

Summary: add Elite and PD (1) to all Dreadnought types


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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Space Marines
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:22 pm 
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Some interesting points there Riquende.
Think I posted something very similar about the drop pods in the earlier review topic that Primarch started. Think I suggested a Support Formation of 4 Assault pods, 1 Cannon and 1 Deathwind for 100pts. That way you could drop detachments of dreadnaughts, vets with a character or other things in.

Haven't ever really used Librarians, but I will have to look at them given your concerns.

I agree that there is something missing from the Dreads to make them a more useful unit.

Funnily enough, special characters in the Raven Guard list are allowed to swap their rhinos for a jump pack, although I am not sure if that helps as all the assault formations still have rhinos, so the character would be left behind.
Maybe allow them to be equipped with jump packs for free if the army consists of at least one detachment of jump pack equipped troops ? Not sure if allowing 1 or 2 stands the option in a whole army is massively broken.
Maybe also allow them to be mounted on bikes at the cost of the rhino, but again only if you have at least one bike detachment?

Regards,

Matt


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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Space Marines
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:23 pm 
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Mattman, your suggestions are very good in my opinion. The only thing I would disagree with would be giving Veterans -1 save modifier ranged weapons. They're already the bane of my life without being given any stat boosts :P. I think that a slight hike in points is all they actually need, along with the CAF change to their HQ.

Riquende, I'm not convinced by a number of those changes. Special characters being able to replace their transport is probably not too big a deal, but I'm concerned about the knock on effect that this idea might have in terms of overall balance. I also don't think that there's a problem with Librarians as they currently are though.

I agree that Dreadnoughts are a little bit underwhelming, but I'm not sure about those particular ideas for improving them. Dreadnoughts across a number of armies are all quite similar, and on the grand scale of Epic, they are really not all that powerful in relative terms, so I'd rather avoid seeing lots of rules added to them. It smacks a bit too much of a 40K approach to an Epic setting to give them to many bonuses.

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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Space Marines
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:56 pm 
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Quote:
I also don't think that there's a problem with Librarians as they currently are though.


There isn't, as long as your opponent is using Chaos, or posibly some Eldar builds. Unfortunately mine don't, so my psykers are left sitting around twiddling their thumbs because my opponent didn't bother bringing anyone for them to challenge. Other factions psykers have more utility (eg Primaris psykers can spot for artillery or embolden nearby troops, both things the IG need). I just think it's odd that of a pool of just 3 powers, 2 of them have a large amount of overlap, and can only be used against a very limited group of targets. And when you get the chance to replace a power with something else, you have to give up the one actually useful power rather than either of the two, very similar, less useful ones.

In short - I want to use a Librarian, but the rules don't make the choice remotely tempting.

Quote:
I agree that Dreadnoughts are a little bit underwhelming, but I'm not sure about those particular ideas for improving them.


Me either. I wanted to float the idea of changing them, but realised I should have a proposed change or else it would just look like unwarranted moaning. Also, 'Dreadnought' is a catch-all term across factions that refer to different things, so I'm fine with having dreadnoughts in one army not be the exact same sort of walker as one in a different army.


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 Post subject: Re: Army List: Space Marines
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 4:07 pm 
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Irisado wrote:
Mattman, your suggestions are very good in my opinion. The only thing I would disagree with would be giving Veterans -1 save modifier ranged weapons. They're already the bane of my life without being given any stat boosts :P. I think that a slight hike in points is all they actually need, along with the CAF change to their HQ.


Maybe just a house rule then that all Veterans used by Irisados opponents get an extra -1 TSM ;D

I suppose it depends on how much shooting is done with them. I can say that in my games they very rarely shoot, they quite quickly get thrown into combat. A little shooting improvement might make them usable in other situations and shows they have better equipment than the average marine (and you have to pay the points for it!).
But then that is why we are having these discussions :)

Matt


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