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What is artillery - and may it snap fire?

 Post subject: What is artillery - and may it snap fire?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:38 am 
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The term artillery is defined as a general term:
Quote:
(4.4.5 Artillery is a general term used to describe weapons that are capable of both direct and indirect fire.

Note that this rule describes weapons, not models, and I assume this means that a vehicle with a barrage weapon does not necessarily become artillery.

Going from the army lists there are sections of Light Artillery and Heavy Artillery, and as such I would assume that buying a detachment from any of these sections e.g. Thudd Guns or Tarrantulas, those count as artillery.

However, clearly the Tarrantula is meant to be allowed to snap fire, as it has the special rule Quickdraw ("The unit does not suffer the –1 To-Hit penalty when Snap Firing"). But if it is in fact a piece of artillery, then rules do not permit to snap fire:
Quote:
(3.1.2) You may not Snap Fire with template weapons or any unit classified as artillery.


So what classifies artillery, or rather how is artillery classified?


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 Post subject: Re: What is artillery - and may it snap fire?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:58 pm 
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The Tarantula isn't capable of indirect fire (at least as far as I recall) and hence is not artillery under the definition in 4.4.5.

Further the special rule mentioned proves the rule that it can snapfire, unless it can credibly be claimed that is an editing error.


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 Post subject: Re: What is artillery - and may it snap fire?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:34 pm 
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IMO ... any unit that has a direct LOS [or even has an FO/Spotter with LOS] should be able to Snap Fire. With the caveat that it must be on First Fire Orders.

In real wargames like from AH, GDW, SPI, etc. Snap Fire is called Opportunity Fire. And to engage a target it must spend 1/4 of it's movement, i.e. : current max speed in the LOS/FOF of a unit on First Fire that that has not fired/been activated yet.

Just say'n ... play as you wish ... But that is the way we have played it since SM1. And prefer a little more/modicum of "reality" in our gaming rules. E.g. we don't mount Close Combat Weapons on Titans. As we see any large combat walker as a heavy mobile weapons platform. There to support the other ground forces. Similar to a warship, e.g. a Destroyer, Cruiser, etc. :whistle


But as always Do What Works For U ... Not Me ... 8) ^-^

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 Post subject: Re: What is artillery - and may it snap fire?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:22 pm 
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Sayrewolf wrote:
The Tarantula isn't capable of indirect fire (at least as far as I recall) and hence is not artillery under the definition in 4.4.5.

Further the special rule mentioned proves the rule that it can snapfire, unless it can credibly be claimed that is an editing error.


I agree, but if Tarrantulas, Infantry guns , Rapier Laser destroyers and Medusas (all direct fire weapons) are not artillery, what are they then? Vehicles or infantry? Note this is important for how these units interact with terrain as well as snap fire.


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 Post subject: Re: What is artillery - and may it snap fire?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:22 pm 
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Well. I think you have found a little category error there. Some of those units definitely do not belong, as defined, under the title artillery.

I think the light artillery needs to be treated as either artillery when meeting the actual definition and as modified Infantry (crew served weapons, for lack of a better term) when not. The Medusa I'm lost on, though, It should be capable of Indirect Fire given that it is a howitzer.

I think this might be a case of having to include this in your 5 minute warm up chat because there is no easy fix here.


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 Post subject: Re: What is artillery - and may it snap fire?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:11 pm 
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Hi!

Looks like some errors in there. The tarantula can definitely snap fire.

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 Post subject: Re: What is artillery - and may it snap fire?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:24 pm 
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For all its worth (me not being the most experienced player) I think especially light artillery needs every little aid it can get. Light artillery is rarely used in my local area, they're just not worth it.

The best fix IMO, but perhaps too aggressive for some, would be to simply remove the definition of artillery completely, thus for all movement and terrain purposes:
Heavy artillery units become vehicles. Light artillery becomes infantry.

For Shooting purposes: Barrage weapons should be considered the new defining word for the old "artillery". Meaning that barrage weapons cannot snap fire, but may fire indirectly (unless of course otherwise stated in unit description). I believe this was also the intention of the current rules.


A note on buildings
It is worth noting that in current rules buildings allows light artillery to enter, but not fire from buildings (see quote below). Again, I suggest that all weapon types that are not barrage weapons, should be allowed to fire out of any sort of terrain. (Bunkers may then allow for barrage weapons). So yes, tarrantulas can shoot from a building, but with a movement of only 5cm, they'll hardly be doing parkour between buildings anyways, so I don't think this will spoil things immensely.

Quote:
Buildings: These come in all shapes and sizes, from apartment blocks to stadiums and warehouses.
There are three grades of construction, from light apartment buildings to heavily defended shelters.
Bunkers have been designed to allow Light Artillery to fire normally, but buildings have not. Light
Artillery may not fire the turn it enters a building, but may leave and fire normally on Advance Orders.

When a unit is inside a building, the building itself may block the line of sight to some targets. This
must be determined on a case-by-case basis, and players must use common sense when deciding if
a unit may fire at a target or not. Bunkers and Strongholds never block line of sight for units inside.


(edited 20:44 for clarity)


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 Post subject: Re: What is artillery - and may it snap fire?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:01 am 
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This has been discussed before, and you are correct.

Technically, according to current NetEpic Gold rules, any model that falls under the Types of "Light Artillery" or "Heavy Artillery" are considered artillery. This is patently ridiculous for models like the Rapier, Tarantula, and Infantry Gun. This is why in all of my recent discussions of weapon rules, costs, etc I have made being able to fire Indirectly and being able to Damage or Destroy Buildings into weapon-specific abilities.

I am planning on doing some minor rewrites of various passages of the rulebooks to enhance clarity, and this is one of those areas. As it stands currently, people are just somehow expected to intuit exactly which weapons function as Artillery, and that all such weapons can fire indirectly and damage buildings - unless the model description says otherwise. In my mind, this is backwards. Each model description needs to specifically note if it can fire indirectly and if it can damage or destroy buildings.

There is a thread in here where I have explicitly listed every weapon currently in NetEpic Gold that is classified as Artillery. As far as I can tell, anyway. I'll find that and link to it. Assuming you have not found it already.

There has been some discussion about possibly renaming "Light Artillery" as "Support Weapons". Mostly this has been voted down when it has come up. Also, if the definition of what counts as Artillery is disassociated with the Pinning Class of the model, renaming would not be necessary.

You are slightly incorrect about the paragraph about buildings. You state that it says that Light Artillery cannot fire from inside a building at all, yet it clearly says that only applies to the turn that they enter the building. Thus, they could fire as normal in subsequent turns.

Also, what is this "4.4.5" that people keep referring to? You should be referencing the NetEpic Gold Core Rules pdf for any rules questions.

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 Post subject: Re: What is artillery - and may it snap fire?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:38 am 
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I cannot find that thread, so it may have just been a post within another thread. So here is that list. Note that the costs listed here are for an earlier version of the Points Formula, and do not represent current values.

_ Cost ____ Weapon ___________________ stats _____________ Faction (Stand / Model)
__ 4.05 _ Missiles __________ 50, (6), 1BP@, 0, +I, 180 _ SQ (Retributor)
__ 5.4 __ Gutbuster Explody_ 100, (12), 3+, +1, DmgBld, +I, RoF1/2, 1/3, 90 _ O (Gargant Weapon: Great/Slasha: Belly)
__ 6.075_ Rockets ___________ 25, (6), 5+, 0, DmgBld, +I, 360 _ SQ (Steel Hawk)
__ 9.1125 Missile Launcher __ 50, (6), 1BP@, 0, DmgBld, +I, 360 _ G/SM (Land Speeder Typhoon)
_ 11.4 __ Razor Claw ________ 25, (6), 3+, 0, DstrBld, +I, PwrFst, 180 _ Ty (Titan Weapon: Arm)
_ 12.15 _ Missile Launcher _ 100, (6), 6+, 0, DmgBld, +I, 360 __ SM (Support Scatolo)
_ 12.15 _ Multi-Launcher ____ 50, (6), 4+, 0, DmgBld, +I, 180 ______ G (Mole)
_ 13.66875 Missile Launcher _ 75, (6), 2BP@, 0, DmgBld, +I, 360 _ SM (Deredeo)
_ 13.66875 Thudd Gun ________ 75, (6), 2BP@, 0, DmgBld, +I, 360 _ CSM/FM/G/PDF/SM/SQ (Thudd Gun)
_ 15 ____ Doomstorm Missiles 100, (6), 5+, -1, aFF, 6S, DmgBld, +Indirect, touch, 180 _ SQ (Cyclops)
_ 16.2 __ Missile Launcher _ 100, (6), 5+, 0, DmgBld, +I, 180 ___ E (Revenant)
_ 16.2 __ Multi-Launcher ___ 100, (6), 5+, 0, DmgBld, +I, 180 ___ TL (Warden Mk2)
_ 16.2 __ Rokkitz ___________ 50, (6), 5+, -1, DmgBld, +I, 180 _ O (Landa)
_ 18.225_ Missile Launcher __ 50, (6), 4+, 0, DmgBld, +I, Turret __ O (Battlewagon mod3)
_ 18.225_ Multi Launcher ___ 150, (6), 2BP@, 0, DmgBld, +I, 180 _____ CSM/G/PDF/SM (Whirlwind), SM (LR Helios)
_ 23.085_ Plague Mortar _____ 25, (6), 5+, -1, Cm, DmgBld, +I, IC, Continues, 180 _ Ng (Plague Tower)
_ 24.3 __ Grenade Launcher __ 50, (6), 5+, -1, DmgBld, +I, 360 _ FM (Support Arbites)
_ 24.3 __ Havok Missiles ____ 50, (6), 5+, -1, DmgBld, +I, IC, 180 _ S/Tz (Defiler)
_ 24.3 __ Missile Launcher _ 100, (6), 4BP@, 0, DmgBld, +I, 180 ___ E (Phantom Wing)
_ 24.3 __ Twin Thudd Gun ___ 100, (6), 2BP@, -1, DmgBld, +I, 180 _ SB (Banisher)
_ 27.3375 Rocket Launcher __ 150, (6), 2BP@, 0, DmgBld, IC, +I, 180 _ SB (Cardinal)
_ 29.16 _ Missiles _________ 100, (6), 4+, -1, aFF, 4S, touch, 180 _____ SQ (Colossus)
_ 32.1975 Plague Catapult ___ 75, (6), 2BP@, 0, DmgBld, +I, IC, Continues, 180 _ Ng (Plague Engine)
_ 32.4 __ Cluster Spines ____ 50, (6), 3+, -1, DmgBld, +I, 180 ___ Ty (Titan Weapon: Arm)
_ 36.45 _ Gretchin Chukka ___ 50, (6), 2BP@, -1, DmgBld, +I, 360 ___ O (Lobba)
_ 36.45 _ Hellstrike Cannon _ 50, (6), 4+, -1, DmgBld, +I, IC, 180 _ C/CSM/Kh/Ng/S/Tz/TL (Titan Weapon)
_ 36.45 _ Sonic Blasters ____ 50, (6), 5+, -2, DmgBld, +I, 360 _____ S (Noise Marine)
_ 43.74 _ Havok Missiles ____ 75, (6), 3+, -1, Cm, DmgBld, +I, 3shot, 180 _ Kh (Banelord HQ)
_ 45.106875 Mole Mortar ____ 150, (6), 1BP@, 0, DmgBld, +I, IC, Trap Titans, 360 _ CSM/FM/G/PDF/SM/SQ (Mole Mortar)
_ 48.6 __ Deathstrike Cannon 200, (6), 2+, -2, DmgBld, +I, move/2, 30 _ TL (Titan Weapon)
_ 48.6 __ Melta Rockets _____ 25, (6), 3+, -3, DmgBld, +I, 360 ____ SQ (Zutik Bomber)
_ 48.6 __ Missiles _________ 100, (6), 5+, -2, DmgBld, +I, 180 _____________ E (Fire Storm Knight)
_ 54.675_ Bile Pods _________ 75, (6), 3BP@, -2, DmgBld, +I, 180 ______ Ty (Dactlys)
_ 54.675_ Hellstrike Cannon _ 50, (6), 4+, -1, Cm, DmgBld, +I, IC, 180 _ Kh (Banelord HQ)
_ 54.675_ Rockets __________ 200, (6), 6BP@, 0, DmgBld, +I, C/S, RoF0.5, 180 _ G/PDF/TL (Manticore)
_ 58.32 _ Havok Missile Rack_ 75, (6), 3+, -1, DmgBld, +I, 6shot, 180 __ C/CSM/Kh/Ng/Sl/Tz (Titan Weapon)
_ 63.7875 Earth Shaker __ 25-100, (12), 2BP@, 0, DmgBld, +I, IC, 180 _____ G/TL (Griffon)
_ 72.9 __ Mega-Lobba ________ 75, (6), 3+, -2, DmgBld, +I, 180 ____________ O (Mega-Squiggoth)
_ 81 ____ Howitzer _________ 100, 1, 4+, -3, Bld-6, DmgBld, +I, 180 _______ G (Medusa)
_ 82.0125 Missiles __________ 75, (6), 4+, -2, DmgBld, +I, 360 ____ SQ (Zutik Bomber)
_109.35 _ Earth Shaker _____ 150, (6), 2BP@, -2, DmgBld, +I, ROF2, 180 _____ CSM/G/PDF/TL (Basilisk), PDF (Earth Shaker)
_109.35 _ Multi-Launcher ____ 50, (6), 4+, -1, aFF, DmgBld, +I, RoF2, 360 _________ G/SQ (Hellbore)
_113.4 __ Multiple Launcher_ 100, (6)/(12), 4+/5+, -1/0, DmgBld, +I, 180 __ TL (Titan Weapon)
_118.8 __ Main Battery _____ 200, (6), 1d6+3BP, -3, DmgBld, +I, 90F _______ TL (Imperator)
_121.5 __ Rot Cannon ________ 50, (6), 3+, -4, Cm, DmgBld, +I, 180 ________ Ng (Plague Tower)
_145.8 __ Behemoth Cannon ___ 50, (6), 5+, -1, Cm, 4Brg, DmgBld, +I, Turret _ G (Capitol Imperialis)
_162 ____ Siege Mortar __ 50-150, (6), 3BP@, -3, DstBld, +I, 180 ____ CSM/G/TL (Bombard)
_178.2 __ Doom Cannon ______ 200, (6), 1d3+6BP, -3, Cm, DmgBld, +I, 90 ____ CSM/G (Leviathan)
_182.25 _ Siege Mortar __ 50-150, (6), 4+, -3, aFF, DmgBld, +I, 180 __ SQ (Mortar Battlecar)
_194.4 __ Ancient Plague Cnn 100, (6), 3+, -1, Cm, DmgBld, +I, Remains, 180 _ Ng (Bubonis)
_194.4 __ Hellstorm Cannon _ 100, (6), 3+, -2, 10S, DmgBld, +I, RoF 0-4, 90FR _ TL (Imperator)
_237.6 __ Doomsday Cannon __ 200, (6), 1d6+3BP, -3, DmgBld, +I, 180 __ SQ (Land Train)
_262.44 _ Barrage Launcher _ LOS, (6), 3+, -2, 1S, DmgBld, +I, +1d6(6), 180 _ TL (Titan Weapon)
_267.3 __ Doomsday Cannon __ 150, (6), 1d6+3BP, -3, aFF, DmgBld, +I, 180 __ SQ (Barrage Battlecar)
_315.9 __ SH Howitzer ___ 50-250, (6), 1d6+4BP, -3, DstrBld, +I, IC, M/F, 180 ___________________ SQ (Goliath Mega-Cannon)
_349.92 _ Rad Bomb _________ LOS, (12), 3+, -1, 1S, DmgBld, +I, IC, Partial, 180 _ SQ (Bomb Battlecar)
_356.4 __ Doomsday Cannon __ 200, (6), 1d6+3BP, -3, aFF, DmgBld, +I, 180 ___ SQ (Colossus)
_631.8 __ SH Howitzer ___ 50-250, (6), 1d6+4BP, -3, DstrBld, +I, IC, M/F, +2x(6):always scatter, 180 _ SQ (Goliath MC: Increased Firepower option)

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 Post subject: Re: What is artillery - and may it snap fire?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:47 pm 
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I think we agree on the intent on the rules, although perhaps it seems a bit odd that Thudd guns may shoot from within a building.

I stand by my RAW interpretation of the underlined quote, but re-reading it with your explanation in mind I get the point. To make the rules accurate the two sentences should not be separate sentences, but I don’t want to argue gramma.

I am referring to section numbers in the text version of the gold rules. The one with images is not easy to read and IMO difficult to tell sections apart, but I’ll play along and use page numbers from now.

Thanks for the quick reply.


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 Post subject: Re: What is artillery - and may it snap fire?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:25 pm 
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What is even weirder is that a Mole Mortar can fire from within a building. Seriously, where does the shell go, through the sewage pipes? At least a Thudd Gun actually fires into the air...

Ah, sorry, I have never had problems with the pdf's and thus do not use the text versions. I did figure out where you were referring to eventually, so perhaps in future say "... in 4.5.5 of the text Core Rules..." or something similar to remind others.

I had forgotten about the text version of the rules. That helps, as now I won't have to make one for myself before editing for clarity.

The underlined bit specifically states "... the turn it enters a building, ..." so I cannot see how someone could logically take that to mean anything other than what it specifically says. In other words, the RAW is that they cannot fire on the turn they enter, but can fire on subsequent turns. If it meant that they could not fire at all from within a building, it would specify that. Still, this could be adjusted a bit for additional clarity. I will probably drop the part about leaving on Advance to fire, as that may be causing confusion and seems superfluous to me. Adding a mention that LA can fire on the turn they enter a Bunker may help as well.

Oh, wait. You are taking the first underlined sentence to mean that they cannot fire from within a building at all. Got it. Yeah, I can see now where that comes from. Right, that sentence will be replaced with one saying that LA may fire on the same turn that they enter a Bunker. That should remove all confusion. I hope.

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 Post subject: Re: What is artillery - and may it snap fire?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 1:31 am 
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:) Yes, that's how I read it.

While I have your attention.. I just noticed something that is unclear or at least can easily be misunderstood in the Squat codex - the squats_with_errata_2.pdf to be precise ;)

It concerns the recon gyrocopters on the colossus and the land train.

Land train rules p.16:
Quote:
Iron Eagle Battle car: Carries an Iron Eagle gyrocopter that can spot for the Land Train.

Well... yes, this seems to state the obvious as any unit may spot for indirect barrages. However, it is easy to confuse it with the recon gyrocopter from the Colossus.

The colossus rules p. 17:
Quote:
The Gyrocopter is a recon unit for the Colossus, and when the Colossus fires barrage weapons it can use the
gyrocopter’s line of sight. Barrages fired in this manner do not scatter as they are considered direct fire.

Ruleswise, the two gyrocopters function in very different ways, but I am unsure if this was the intent?
(IMO they should function in the same way as its confusing to have different rules for two units that for all purposes are meant to do the same thing.)

perhaps this should have had its own thread..oh well its late.


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 Post subject: Re: What is artillery - and may it snap fire?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 6:22 am 
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It still kind of relates to Artillery, so no worries.

The rules for the Colossus date back to the GW rules for 2nd/Titan Legions. The one for the Land Train was added for NetEpic at some point, but it well predates my involvement. Perhaps Primarch can recall if they were intended to work in the same way.

Personally, I would expect that if they were intended to work in the same way, that they would have used the same wording. Since they don't, I would take it that the one for the Land Train functions as a normal Iron Eagle Gyrocopter. Except of course that it has no BP, gives no VP, and it's Morale is the same as a Battlecar.

Still, I should probably work up costs for a Gyrocopter with the Forward Observer ability, as is basically what the Colossus based one has. Actually, it would have to be an improved version of the existing ability. I am amazed that I haven't thought of that until now.

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