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Many questions from ViP 2016

 Post subject: Many questions from ViP 2016
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 3:21 pm 
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Hi,

I had many questions during the Volcano In Paris 2016 Edition and as the official referee, I had to take some decisions but I'd like to know with you if my answers were good or not ;)

1) Wave serpent firing its wave: the wave can destroy building but what happen if building save is successful ?
a) Wave stops as building survives the attack
b) Wave continues its traval

2) Multiple templates Vs Holofield (or Glamour of Slaanesh or anything that forces a scatter roll): some weapons like Barrage Missiles or Golgotha Missiles place first 1 template and then additional templates that must touch each other. Holofield rule states that template weapons that touch a miniature protected by holofield always scatter. I assume that the first template scatters (anyway Barrage Missile always scatter but not Golgotha ones) but when you have additional templates, with a small scatter roll, you can place in a way to touch the holofield protected miniature and in this case:
a) roll for deviation on these templates
b) these templates won't deviate, only the first do

3)Master Mime special Ability: Master Mime can remove an order from a detachment (not AI, Robotic, HQ, Daemonic, Tyranid). What can do this detachment during this turn ?
a) absolutely nothing
b) only fire in Advance Fire segment as for units without order

4)Can the Master Mime card be played on a Praetorian/Titan unit ? It seems weird that it could prevent an Imperator Titan from firing in first fire but...
a) No
b) Yes
If Yes, does the titan/Praetorian automatically succeed the Morale test roll as they don't have Morale Value:
a) Yes
b) No


5) Placing Barrage Templates and HQ protection:
Rulebook says page 35, Direct Barrages:
"When placing a barrage template, the template need not be centered on a target model. It may be placed in any way to maximize the number of troops targeted. It may not cover an HQ unit unless the HQ unit is a valid target."
We face the situation where a player places its HQ unit in a way that if you tried to place a template on troops in front of it, the template also touch the HQ Stand. As per the rules, you can not target an HQ unit unless its the closest unit of this pinning class from the firing unit (what is noted as a valid target in rulebook quote). So when template was placed to maximize the number of troops targeted, it also covered the HQ but the HQ was not a valid target.
a) It's OK to place the template even if the HQ was covered
b) This tricky placement was OK and template could not be placed there

6) can a single stand engage in close combat more than 1 enemy stands ? For example, 1 harlequin stand on a 40*10mm base charge 2 stands (20x20mm) touching each other ? Or a Warlord titan on a 60mm base engaging in close combat 2 Land Raiders at 6cm from each other ?
a) Yes
b) No

7) can a detachment consisting of several stands engage in close combat several enemy detachments ? For example, 1 jetbike detachment consisting of 5 jetbikes engages in close combat 2 devastator stands from a detachment, 2 from another detachment and 1 from another detachment ?
a) Yes
b) No

Thanks in advance for your replies :)


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 Post subject: Re: Many questions from ViP 2016
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 7:55 pm 
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Hi!

I'll take a stab. ;)

1. Honestly, no right answer here. I have used both. I slightly lean to "b". Since it needs to run the full course rolled.

2. b

3. b

4. a

5. a

6. a

7. a

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 Post subject: Re: Many questions from ViP 2016
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 8:10 pm 
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1: B The description, first paragraph on page 33, basically says that the wave can affect buildings as it passes them.

2: A (well, roll for scatter anyway, as deviation is on the hit location chart and that is separate.)
My reasoning is that the description on page 5 (last sentence) specifies "However, any barrage template that covers the unit will always scatter regardless of whether it is direct fire or not." Any should mean any and all.

3: B (Since nothing else is specified, the general rules for not having an order counter should apply.)

4: As far as I can tell from the description of the Master Mime, its ability could only be used on a target that would be receiving an order counter. Thus Praetorians would be immune as they do not receive order counters. Most Titans could be affected, as they do receive order counters. As the Imperator does not receive order counters as such, I would rule that it cannot be affected. As far as I am aware, any model with a morale value of "--" is considered to automatically pass any required Morale check.

5: B The rule is what it is specifically so that this tactic is valid. It is a bit sneaky to do it, but it is valid.

6: A See the rules for "Complex Combats" on pages 39 and 40. While the listed rules do not specifically mention the cases you presented, they seem close enough to me. See also the "Outnumbering" rule on page 20.

7: A, so long as all of the attackers (Jetbikes in that case) can enter CC and maintain coherency. If the opponent places his/her troops so badly as to allow that to happen, they need to be shown the error.

EDIT: I see Primarch beat me to it slightly. Well, we mostly agree...

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 Post subject: Re: Many questions from ViP 2016
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 2:37 pm 
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Thanks for your answers :)

1)b) the thrown wave that hits a building will continue its travel

3)b)Unit target by the Master Mime can still fire in advance fire segment

6)a)One stand can engage close combat against more than 1 enemy stands

7)a) a detachment can engage its stands against several enemy detachments

For balanced answers:
2)"Any" can be read as "any and all" but in that case, it means that extra templates won't touch the first one if deviation roll is an arrow. It's surely more realistic that they stay in touch with the first one (or the previous one(s)).

4) Master Mime description does not say you can't use the card on a Command Unit so if you can play it on a Titan, you also should be able to play it on a Praetorian as they're not HQ. If I had to choose, I'd say you can not use it on a Titan/Praetorian, your 900 points warlord blocked by a 50 points points card that can not be countered is a bit too hard imho.

5) Imho, that case is an excessive use of the HQ protection rule. HQ "protection" is made to prevent your opponent to specifically target at your HQ if there's some other troops that can be targeted instead, not to create a "bubble" to block your opponent to place a template there. I'm OK to not allow centering the template on the HQ if it's not "a valid target" but overusing the HQ protection rule is a bit too much.

And now the 8th question:
8 ) can the Master Mime be used on a flyer detachment ?
a) No
b) Yes
If Yes as Flyers have to move at least 50% of their base movement, are they allowed to do this move (and perform some turns)
a)Yes
b)No


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 Post subject: Re: Many questions from ViP 2016
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 6:04 pm 
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While the wording of the Master Mine does not specify "Command", it seems implied to me. I could be wrong. Specifically, the part where it says "The targeted detachment immediately loses its orders (unless it was on Fall Back), and may receive no orders in later turns..." If the target does not receive an order counter, then there is nothing for it to lose. Especially as the sentence includes the limitation for Fall Back. The ability seems to me to be one of disrupting the target's ability to receive orders from its Command structure. If the target does not have to receive orders from an outside agency, it should be immune to the ability. Just my thoughts on that.

Keep in mind that Titans and Praetorians are different classes of models. While they have some identical rules, some of their rules are different. Thus having a thing that affects one and not the other is fine.


As to Flyers, well, I would say that if it is a model/detachment that receives an order counter, then it could be affected. If it is a Praetorian (or otherwise does not receive orders - like the Ork Blasta Bomma) then it/they would be immune.

The rules for Flyers do not specify exactly what happens if they do not receive an order counter, thus the default rules would apply. Unfortunately, the default rules for that specify that the model cannot move and the Flyer rules require a move. I would say that they would still move half their normal distance in a straight line forward from their last heading, with no turns allowed, as specific rules override general ones, but turning requires control and a lack of orders implies a lack of control. Perhaps one turn up to 45 degrees at the end could be allowed.

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