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Rules questions: Buildings

 Post subject: Rules questions: Buildings
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2016 5:59 pm 
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Firstly, the rules for buildings/structures need some rewriting, the terminology is quite loose.

Q 1 Are all Structures Buildings and vice versa.
E.g. are Trenches and Infantry Bunkers buildings? Does it cost 5 cm to enter and leave a trench or infantry bunker? Likewise, do the rules for protection also apply to them? (i.e. To-hit and CAF mods and Template weapons auto hit)

Q 2 I would like to clarify the difference between Barricades and Trenches. They describe wire barricades and razor wire respectively, which is the same thing.

Q 3 When do buildings actually collapse? Under the rules for Structural Integrity state that buildings must roll in the End Phase, however, the rule for Protection reads: "Template weapons will automatically hit buildings, and you first roll to see if the building falls down. If it doesn’t, roll to hit all units underneath the template with the appropriate To-Hit modifier." But I don't know if the building falls down until the End Phase...?

Q 4 The structure table under section 3.10.3 has a column that says structural integrity, what is this? According to the rules you apply a SI counter each time a building fails an armour save and roll 1D6 in the End Phase that must be less than or equal to the current number of SI counters to destroy the building, no mention of the points from the table though.

Q 5 Do weapons with the special rule Destroys Buildings destroy buildings immediately or does this also happen in the end phase?
This end phase rule is a bit weird as enemy troops on advance orders will simply leave the building if enough hits are allocated to it before it collapses.


Last edited by Kogle on Wed Feb 17, 2016 6:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules questions: Buildings
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2016 6:45 pm 
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Regarding the first couple of questions, this is just an inconsistent use of terminology that is causing the problem here. A trench cannot, by definition, be a building. The 5cm rule is applied only to buildings in the rules, so again, you are right that it needs to be clarified as to whether it applies to other structures as well.

Q2 & 2B - It always used to be that a building which takes enough damage to be destroyed, collapses there and then. I am sure that this is still the case, and that's certainly how I've always played it.

Q3 - If a building is still standing, but has taken damage, you roll to see if it collapses and consult the points in the SI table to determine the result. That's how I understand that rule.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules questions: Buildings
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2016 6:52 pm 
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oops I see I wrote Q2 twice. I've fixed my original post and hoping that Irisado's post still makes sense.


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 Post subject: Re: Rules questions: Buildings
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 4:55 am 
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I just re-read the 'Structure' section (beginning at the top of the second column on page 28 and running through page 30) carefully. Doing so reveals:

Q1: All Buildings are Structures, but not all Structures are Buildings**. This is like how all Squares are Rectangles but not all Rectangles are Squares.

Trenches and Infantry Bunkers are not, technically, Buildings*. They are still Structures, just not Buildings. Thus they do partially benefit from the 'Protection' characteristic in that they provide a to-hit modifier to things inside. However, as they are not Buildings, they do not give a CAF bonus and are not automatically hit by template weapons. Also, it does not cost 5cm of movement to enter or leave a Trench or Infantry Bunker. The chart in the lower left of page 30 clears up a lot of movement questions.

*This is because Trenches, Infantry Bunkers, and Buildings are each separate sub-types of Structures. Buildings have three sub-types in Light, Standard, and Fortifications. It could be argued that perhaps an Infantry Bunker should be a sub-type of Building, but at the present time it is not.**

**Then again, perhaps they are. The chart at the top of the right column on page 30 has all Structures listed with a 'Construction' factor that are based on the sub-types of buildings. Thus one could argue that by that chart, all Structures are sub-types of Building, even though Building is a sub-type of Structure. Yay for recursive loops. In other words, everything I said in the two paragraphs above could be wrong. Or not. My brain hurts now.

Q2. Well, no. I consider a 'Wire Barricade' to be a series of chain-link fence, tightly woven together with a few gaps that the stands within may fire from. Somewhat like the chain-link fences in common use in the modern day, but thicker and tougher. 'Ravorwire' would be coils of 'barbed wire' loosely hung on posts, staked down, or just sitting there. Each type also describes a few other possibilities that you can use if you don't like this distinction.

Q3. There are two basic times that a Structure may collapse, and one 'advanced' one.
_ 1: When it fails an Armor Save AND
_ _ A: has accumulated a number of SI equal to it's maximum by category.
_ _ B: was hit by a weapon with the "Destroys Buildings" ability.
_ 2: During the End Phase, all Structures with at least 1 SI point against them that have not yet collapsed roll 1d6 and will collapse at that point if the roll is equal to or less than the number of SI points on it.
_ 3: When hit by a template weapon, make a roll as done during the End Phase. Note that this is NOT an Armor Save. It is a 1d6 roll against the number of SI currently against that specific Structure at that moment. [Note that this is my specific interpretation based on the wording found for templates under 'Protection' and 'Structural Integrity' categories, specifically the use of "falls down" rather than Armor Save. I could be wrong.]

Q4. It is the maximum number of SI that can be accumulated by that type of Structure/Building before it falls down on it's own. At least, that's how I interpret it.

Q5. Weapons with the 'Destroys Buildings' ability do not add a SI point if the Structure/Building fails it's Armor Save, but instead make it fall down immediately. Note that the Structure/Building does still get it's Armor Save.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules questions: Buildings
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 10:19 am 
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Thank's for the fast reply - yea me 'ead hurts too! Which actually clarifies the point of this post, namely that the rules for buildings/strunctures are confusing. I think your answer to Q3, which I'm sure is correct, demonstrates quite clearly that rules are quite complex and difficult to remember in a game.

I would like to simply propose a rewrite to clarify the rules, however, I think a mere reformulation would not suffice and some of the actual rules and game mechanics would have to be changed. If I understand your forum/rule structure correctly then such a rewrite would classify as an alternative rule, perhaps implemented into the platinum rule set.


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 Post subject: Re: Rules questions: Buildings
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 7:36 pm 
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Yes, that may be necessary. The layout of entries on pages 28 and 29 suggests a certain arrangement (despite the description of Fortifications including the words Stronghold and Bunker), while the charts on page 30 suggest a different arrangement. It seem likely that the person who wrote the text may be different from the person who made the charts. Unfortunately, we will probably never know that as it happened many years ago.

There are also a couple of places, notably the colored box describing the use of Damages Building and Destroys Buildings abilities and a couple other, where the term "Building" is interchangeable with "Structure". It probably should not be. Either that needs changing, or the layout of the descriptions on pages 28 & 29 needs changing, or both.

I'm often good at rewording things for better clarity. I'll poke at that at some point, and see what I can come up with.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules questions: Buildings
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 9:09 pm 
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Just to say that this section does not appear to need a complete re-write, but it does need some clarifications, especially regarding terminology and consistency (the written rules and the table).

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 Post subject: Re: Rules questions: Buildings
PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 6:38 am 
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Any actual rewrite that included any significant rule changes would certainly be for Platinum.

It should be possible to rephrase a couple of places to increase clarity without any significant rule changes. This latter is primarily what I will be attempting. Probably once I finish updating the factions to V0.43 costs.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules questions: Buildings
PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 3:09 pm 
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Agreed. Having seen how well you've tweaked previous sections of the rules which were not clear, I'm sure that this will be sorted :).

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