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Rules questions

 Post subject: Re: Rules questions
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 9:17 am 
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I agree with you although I can better accept that the Banshees/Scorpions wouldn't be as effective against Terminators because of their armour, Ogryns not so much. From memory it wasn't always the case, the Banshees & Scorpions were equally powerful against vehicles etc as they are against infantry which was overkill. I suspect that the Ogryn problem is simply an unforeseen consequence of the change to their rules,

I don't think 4. was there when I replied but...

4. Just once model has to be within 10cm. The same applies to Ork Boyz and Nobz etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules questions
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 3:49 pm 
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The Bissler is correct on point 1, and on all his replies. Ogryn are an odd side effect of the change in the rules for the Banshee and Scorpions, but since they do have a Fixed save, they are unaffected.

The wording on who is and is not affected may have to be adjusted slightly. The intent is: "only models of these types and even then only ones that do not have a Fixed save".

I would not refer to Terminators as the Marines "primary" Close Combat troop. That would be Assault Marines, which are affected by Banshee and Scorpion effects. While Terminators are good in CC, they are good at just about everything too.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules questions
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 8:03 pm 
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Termies are good at most things....except move fast :)

Thanks for all the answers!


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 Post subject: Re: Rules questions
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2015 1:43 pm 
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Ok. After a game of netepic I have a question again:

I have e.g. 5 guardians in a detachment that are on first fire. My opponent have 3 rhinoes containing assult marines belonging to the same detachment (from a battle company). My opponent clearly wants to move the rhinoes up and the marines want to jump out and charge my guardians with the last movement (rhinoes could not make it into CC).
I want to try and shoot rhinoes in order to kill more troops and make the charge fail. But how is taht resolved?

a. The marine player moves one rhino forward. The guardians are allowed to use their first fire, but then all have to shoot and only one rhino can die. This results in the rest of the rhinoes and assault marines arriving unharmed.
If I choose not to shoot the first rhino the marine can unload the assault marines and then engage two of my guardians. If the guardians choose to shoot they once again only have 2 targets for their 5 shoots, afterwards they will be charged by the rest of the assault marines.

b. The movement of all rhinoes happens at the same time and therefore the guardians can each target a rhino (with two shoots on two of the rhinoes) as they move up. The surviving rhinoes can then send forth their assault marines.

I hope the dilema is described clear enough? If moving one transport up and unloading+charging troops from that transport the FF order can only "catch" the first transport before they are engaged in CC (thereby cancling their snapfire if they dident use it on the first transport). The "problem" is that the assault marines and the rhino is part of the same detachment and therefore activated at the same time which gives the dilema.

So how is the movement actually resolved? It hugely important for snapfire. Same as if a detachment of rhinoes pass through a small opening and a troop wants to fire at them. When they snap fire is it only on the first one or is it simply decided that they all move at the same time and therefore the snapfire can be distributed amongst the rhinoes that pass the opening.

This entire dilemma is negated if they troops and transports is two different detachments as that negates the possibility of moving the transport and sending forth troops in one activation and thereby sequencing rhino-assaultmarine-rhino-assaultmarine-rhino-etc.which is the core question.


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 Post subject: Re: Rules questions
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2015 2:15 pm 
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For the Knights question i think its just that you always get a fixed/unmodifiable save from the front 90 degree arc, otherwise any TSMs will apply from the side/rear as normal (as well as the side/rear armour modifiers) - You wouldn't get 2 saves, they aren't like Titan Void shields.

Can't really argue with the wording of the rules for the Striking Scorpions/Banshees but it is a bit stupid the way they work, i find the 1d6 + 6 CAF rule for scorpions against armored targets completely nonsense, but hey-ho!

Curious about the answer to your last question also - guess it would apply to Snap fire too, would you need to declare it as the rhinos were moving, but before the troops deployed?

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 Post subject: Re: Rules questions
PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 6:55 am 
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Quote:
For the Knights question i think its just that you always get a fixed/unmodifiable save from the front 90 degree arc, otherwise any TSMs will apply from the side/rear as normal (as well as the side/rear armour modifiers) - You wouldn't get 2 saves, they aren't like Titan Void shields.


Thats opposite of Bisslers reply which magnus has supported ;) My initial understanding was it works as the holofield of a titan, which does indeed allow for the holofield save plus normal save. The holofield is excatly the same as the knights recieve (holofield for titan and knight is explained under the same heading and in the same section with no difference (except the actual save number, titan shield is better)- So yes, they are like titan shields for eldar). The 90 degree front is never mentioned anywhere? If its a fixed save it is per definition not modified (even from the side/rear) otherwise its not fixed?
Eldar knights dont have a physical shield per say, only a holofield identical to the titan holofield which surrounds the model. From the rules:

Quote:
Holo-fields
Some units use a protective system known as a Holo-field. This
device wreaks havoc on targeting systems and makes the unit difficult to
hit. The dispersion of the field and the distortion it produces are dependent
on both the mass and the speed with which the unit is moving. A Holo-field
grants a Fixed Save against all incoming shots according to the orders it
has. This save is ineffective against template weapons, as well as psychic
attacks that do not require line of sight. However, any barrage template that
covers the unit will always scatter regardless of whether it is direct fire or
not.


So I will use Bisslers reply until proven wrong :)

Anyone know the answer to the snapfire question?

Quote:
Curious about the answer to your last question also - guess it would apply to Snap fire too, would you need to declare it as the rhinos were moving, but before the troops deployed?


Thats the entire problem. He can move 1 rhino, unload 2 marines charge with them. Then go back and take the next rhino unload 2 marines and charge with them. Move last rhino, unload marines and charge again. They are in the same detachment so he can activate them all, the order of activation is never mentioned. In all that movement when can I snapfire to? Is it possible to snapfire against alle 3 rhinoes before getting charged or is it only possible to shoot one rhino (Against orks that group all transports into one detachment it is very important as it serverly limits the snapfire against them by charging with one stand at a time).
I think he has to declare the intent of all the rhinoes and I can then declare my intent to snapfire or not. Afterwards the intent of the marines is declared and I can respond with snapfire or not. After than the marines are in CC.

Ronnie


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 Post subject: Re: Rules questions
PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 8:38 am 
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Hmm, that suits me as i'm taking Knights against the Bissler tonight, so an extra save is most welcome!

here's the rules from the current Ad-Mech NetEpic army book.

Quote:
Imperial Knight Shields
Shields grant a Fixed Armour Save against shots that strike a
Knight on the front 90° arc. Barrages are considered to hit the Knight from
the direction of the firer. Weapons of multiple barrages all count as being
fired from the direction of the firing weapon (this means you may not bypass
the shield by placing additional templates in a manner so as to “walk
around” the shield).


I'll need to dig out the Titan Legions rules to see if they describe it better (i'm sure there are diagrams/examples in there), but the way i interpreted it is that it simply made the existing Armour save fixed.

Not sure where you are drawing the comparison to the Holo-fields from? holo-fields work based on the movement speed of the titan etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules questions
PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 1:24 pm 
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Eldar Knights fields work as per their Titan's Holofield rules. Imperial Knights have only a fixed shield in their front 90 degree arc. Thus you are both right, just talking about different things.


Not certain about the snapfire vs movement question, but I'd assume it would have to be B. All movement, to the extent possible, would have to be relatively simultaneous. Even though models are moved individually, all of the movement would be happening at the same time in the battle itself, thus all three Rhinos should be targetable by a single snapfire.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules questions
PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 2:16 pm 
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Ah! Eldar Knights! Sorry - my bad, i completely forgot they existed, all makes sense now.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules questions
PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 8:06 pm 
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Hi Magnus

Would also be my guess, just not very clearly formulated in the rules and gives room for misunderstanding. Thanks as always.

Regarding the knight...I kinda assumed that was the root of the problem with imperial vs eldar :) At least it got cleared up.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules questions
PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2015 9:53 pm 
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Re Snap Fire, B is the answer.

Longer version: the Rhinos would move as one, therefore all of them would be viable targets once one of them moved. If you waited until they dropped off their troops then both troops and Rhinos could be fired upon by Snap Fire.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules questions
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2015 10:40 am 
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Thanks again Bissler!

Good to have it confirmed just so we dont need to argue about it in our group (not that we have so far, just looking to avoid it all together).

Ronnie


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 Post subject: Re: Rules questions
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2015 1:19 pm 
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No probs, happy to help out new players! The more people we get playing, the better. We need an active community to keep the game alive! Feel free to keep firing questions, I'll help where I can. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Rules questions
PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2015 11:23 am 
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So, I have been looking at orcs a little as we have used them in our games. But I have a couple of questions:

1. When you add more of the same unit type in an orc army, it adds to the same "detachment" to gain large WAARG hosts. But the rules does not exclude any types of units, so does that also count for e.g. superheavies and fliers, they also have to form a larger detachment?
The reason Im asking is that for the dragster (mekboy with the bubble shield against shooting) the special rules states that if 2 protective bubbles overlap they will cause both bubbles to cease working. The orc special rule forces the dragsters into the same detachment (6 cm distance between the two) and thereby negates the bubble if 2 or more dragsters is present in the company card?

2. If buying a landa special detachment are all 5 one detachment also? In game it is neigh impossible to force them into a 6cm distance as they scatter when they land and have no movement. So most games they will land (crash to the ground) outside of 6 cm from the nearest lander and go on first fire the rest of the game (once again, no movement mode). So I assume it is legal for them to do this as the rules does not account for detachemnts that have no movement mode and start outside 6cm of each other. It is also quite a special case, but almost guarenteed to happen if you buy a 5 landa detachment.

3. If you buy the Renegade mekboy detachment where you get 8 mekboy vehicles I assume they form 5 different detachments (one for each type and you are forced to take one of each type) where duplicates of certain types of mekboy vehicle will join the detachment for their type.

Kind regards
Ronnie


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 Post subject: Re: Rules questions
PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2015 4:36 pm 
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1. Yes, all Ork formations do group-up into larger Mobs. However, this is handled on a Clan (IE, Company) by Clan basis. For example, if you purchase only one Clan formation and then add two Skullhamma formations to it, the two Skullhamma formations would group up into one Mob. On the other hand, if you have two different Clan formations and buy only one Skullhamma formation for each Clan, then the two Skullhamma do not form into one Mob, but instead remain separate. See the paragraph on page 5 of the Ork pdf that begins with "Mobz may not..."
1a. In other words, do not attach more than one Mekboy Dragsta as a Support formation to any specific Clan and you will be fine.

2. I would say that in that case, and any similar to it, maintaining coherency is irrelevant since it is impossible. Even the standard rules for coherency allow for a formation to be out of coherency (say from taking losses) so long as they remain of FF orders.

3. Negative. The Renegade Mekboyz formation is all one detachment. Just one Mob that consists of all 8 selected vehicles, regardless of which specific types. Thus one must be careful to not select too many Dragstas so that they do not overlap.

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