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Rules questions

 Post subject: Re: Rules questions
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 10:48 am 
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I agree with you, and I think it is quite clear that the Squat special rule Close Combat mastery, only allows one reroll per turn due to this specific rule , but a second reroll may be taken using the Elite special rule. Also the Elite reroll may be taken first, then followed by a Close Combat mastery reroll. Otherwise this would degrade the value of many squat units such as Hearthguards.

Q: The Close Combat mastery Squat special rule says: "Due their resilience and skill in Close Combat, Squat infantry may
reroll any “1” on one or both Close Combat dice." This seems to indicate that if I roll three or more dice, then I can only reroll at maximum two of these dice.


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 Post subject: Re: Rules questions
PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2016 7:47 pm 
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Q: Hit allocation states that "Assign Attack Dice: Each die may be given a separate target,
so you can spread your fire around or concentrate on one target. Units with
multiple weapons and weapons with multiple dice may spread the dice among
different targets." What is the definition of "target"? Single stands or single detachments? When firing at detachments with super heavies and larger or mixed tanks this makes sense but makes little sense at all when firing at anything else.

Example 1: Tau crisis suit detachment of 4 stands have 12 shots at mixed ork tank detachment of magnet thingy, rocket thingy, and explodie thingy. Do I have to allocate each and every die to specific vehicles or can I just declare what detachment is firing and what detachment its "target" is?

Example 2: Tau crisis suit detachment of 4 stands have 12 shots at ork mob of boyz and nobz. If I can't pick out an HQ within 10cm of its same pinning class then why should I be allowed to allocate where the shots go? This should be a matter of I activate the crisis suits and am allocating all shots into "target" detachment of orks.

Example 3: Tau pathfinders detachment of 4 stands has 4 shots of markerlights and chooses to fire at an ork boyz detachment and an ork stompa detachment. I fire 2 at the boyz and 2 at the stompas and all of them hit. Is the entire detachment of boyz markerlit or just 2 stands? Is the entire detachment of stompas markerlit or just 2 specific models?

The rules make no mention of how destroyed models are removed. Models closest to the firer should be removed first as occurs in 40k.

The rules do not define target and there is a huge difference between gunshots that affect single stands and markerlights that should affect detachments. If markerlights are on a stand vs stand basis rather than stand vs detachment basis then they are worthless to even take in an army. The rules don't specify which it is because the word "target" is never defined.

Really looking forward to platinum because the more I read and the more I play the more I realize that NEG is filled with holes and missing information.


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 Post subject: Re: Rules questions
PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2016 2:53 am 
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All attacks are against specific models (model or stand) and are never taken against a detachment. LOS, Range, and all other factors are dependent on targeting specific models. Losses are taken against the specific model(s) hit.

This is made clear (to me anyway) by the first sentence under "The Effects of Damage" on page 37 which says:
Quote:
Once a model is hit it is allowed to make an Armour Save to avoid destruction.

It does not say anything like "When a detachment takes a hit, you remove casualties in this way...", thus it does not mean that. Each specific shot has to target a specific model, and only affects that model. Well, unless it uses a template or has other Special rules.

Example 1: Yes you have to designate how many shots (of which weapons) are targeting each specific model. This must be done before any To Hit rolls are made.

Example 2: Because that is the way the game works. You have to designate all shots as being against Boyz, as the Nobz benefit from the HQ rule. This is to protect a player from having their opponent place all shots against just the Nobz and ignore the Boyz entirely. Sure, it makes sense to target the leaders, but nobody is going to just ignore a horde of screaming Orks heading your way. This also protects Tau leaders when they are behind other Walker-class models.

Example 3: By a strict reading of the Markerlights rules in the current NetEpic file, yes, they have to target specific models and do not affect the entire detachment, except where the single model IS the whole detachment. As far as I can tell, the latter is really what they are intended to be used for at this scale. In other words, using the Markerlights against Infantry and other light targets is somewhat of a waste, and that is by design. However, as there are larger targets at this scale, the Markerlights would be primarily used against them.

Remember, we are not playing W40K at a different scale here. Things do not always function in exactly the same way, and that is fine. That said, if you want to propose changing that rule for 6 or Platinum, go right ahead.

Sorry, no, as I mentioned above, the rules do specifically state how to remove models. See page 37 of the Core Rules.

Personally, I don't see the need for the rules to specifically define the word "target", but that may be because I've come to NetEpic from playing 2nd edition Epic where it was also model by model, thus to me it flows naturally. That said, it would seem that it does need defining for those who do not have such a background in playing Epic scale. Perhaps that can be added to 6 and/or Platinum.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules questions
PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2016 3:51 am 
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So are you saying that if I fire at any detachment of pure infantry I must allocate each and every single attack die to individual stands?

The rules as written state "you may". When did that change to "you must".

This is incredibly clunky and time consuming in a game that is supposed to be abstracted for fast play.


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 Post subject: Re: Rules questions
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 2:59 am 
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Yes. This also applies to mixed model-type formations, such as Marines.

No they don't. What it does say is:
Quote:
1) Assign Attack Dice: Each die may be given a separate target, so you can spread your fire around or concentrate on one target. Units with multiple weapons and weapons with multiple dice may spread the dice among different targets.

This means that you may place all shots at either the same target OR at multiple targets. In other words, you are allowed to split each model's fire among multiple targets, but are not forced to if you want to concentrate all shots on a single target. There is still nothing here that says that you can or may target a Detachment.

NetEpic is not "abstracted for fast play", aside from not shooting each and every bolter shot from a stand of Marines. You are thinking of Net Epic Armageddon, or some other variant.

This is part of the challenge and the risk of this game. You have to decide how many shots to put on each legal target, and deal with the results thereof. Thus if you assign three shots to a single stand/model and it dies from the first one, then the other two are wasted. On the other hand, the target might survive the first two shots but die to the third, in which case it is not a waste.

To revisit your 'Example 2' above, even if it did work the way you were proposing, you would still not be able to affect the Nobz by targeting the Detachment of Boyz, as the Boyz and the Nobz are separate Detachments.


On the other hand, the above aside, if you and your opponent really prefer to play the game in such a way as to target detachments and remove losses in some abstract way, go ahead and do so. The game is flexible enough to support House-rules here and there. Just note that a tournament using NetEpic will not work that way. If you do decide to do this, please post battle report(s) so that the rest of us can see how it works that way.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules questions
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 5:18 am 
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I'd like to play rules as written for now so I can understand everything perfectly before tackling Tau for platinum. So in any of the above examples if I am firing then all shots are assumed to target a single tank or a single stand of infantry unless otherwise stated?


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 Post subject: Re: Rules questions
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 8:50 pm 
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That is reasonable. That is, wanting to play RAW before modifying things.

Even safer would be to not assume anything. The player should declare how the shots for that detachment are being allocated, whether that means all at one target or several.

To revisit your examples:

1: In that case, you have many possible options. You could put:
_ all 12 shots at 'Explody' tank. This would almost guarantee taking it out, but would guarantee not affecting the other tanks.
_ 6 shots at 'Explody' tank and 6 at 'magnet' tank. This gives a large chance of taking out two tanks, but guarantees not affecting the third.
_ 4 shots at each tank. This would give significant chances of taking out each tank.
_ 3 shots at each of 'explody' and 'magnet' and 6 at 'rocket'. This shows that you really hate the rocket tank, but still want a good chance at the other two.
_ 3 shots at each of the tanks in that detachment and 3 shots, 1 at each of three Madboyz stands, in another direction (yes, not a part of the original example, but relevant).
_ some other combination that adds up to 12 (or fewer) shots.

2: Here you have basically the same options as with the tanks, but as most pure-Infantry Ork Boyz detachments (Clan formation anyway) have 15 stands, it is safer to place fewer allocated shots to each possible target as they have no Armor Save. Also of note with the HQ rules is the exception. You cannot target the HQ stand/model unless it is the closest model of it's class. Thus, with the first detachment of Crisis Suits you activate, you would target up to 12 stands of Boyz (more likely 6 stands with 2 shots allocated to each) to clear away as much of the front ranks as possible to try and make the Nobz be the closest target for the next detachment that you will be activating later.

3: Just the two stands and the two Stompas would be affected. However, the Pathfinders would be better used to either only target the Stompas - and thus likely affect all of them - or all target the nearby Ork Gargant so that your Manta has a better chance at taking it out. Infantry is easy enough to hit and kill without wasting a Marketlights use on them. Except for Special Infantry, like Ork Warlords, of course.

I suppose that the above notes on the examples may be obvious at this point, but mentioning them just in case.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules questions
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 11:25 pm 
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Thank you. You have been very helpful and I'll be sure to get this right in my next game. I can only assume that because of these rules, all shots must be declared prior to rolling any of the shots so I think it'll be easiest to keep track of everything by setting the dice I intend to use next to their targets as I declare them.

My last followup question would be attacking the ork formation. Let's say the formation is 20 stands. It is 4 stands across and 5 stands deep. Does this mean I can only attack the 4 stands in the front since those 4 stands would block line of sight to all stands behind them? I could see sheisty players taking advantage of this.


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 Post subject: Re: Rules questions
PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2016 1:02 am 
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You are welcome, I try to be.

Correct, all shots should be declared before any To Hit rolls are made. That is a reasonable method.

Correct, the first row would block Line of Sight to all rows behind them. This is specified in the last sentence of the third paragraph under "Line of Sight (LOS)" on page 33 of the core rules.
Quote:
Units block line of sight to any unit of their pinning class or smaller – you can see tanks behind infantry but you can’t see tanks behind tanks.

In that quote, replace the word "unit" with "model/stand" for greater accuracy.

That said, most players will space out their Infantry as much as possible (see "Unit Coherency" on page 20) to avoid being easy targets for templates. Thus it will often, if not usually, be possible to gain LOS to some models/stands in ranks behind the first.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules questions
PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2016 10:28 pm 
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Just to add I would allow Titans and units making pop up attacks to fire into second lines and beyond of infantry. Just use your common sense with LOS i suppose is the obvious thing to say!

So far as allocating dice is concerned it does get easier and faster as you get familiar with the game. Having different colours of dice helps speed the process up. For example, I have 6 attack dice and want to attack 3 targets with 2 attack dice each. I would use 2 green, 2 red & 2 purple dice to make it clear which attacks affect which targets.

Once other point to make is about units with multiple weapons. I would always state which weapons attack which targets and if relevant in which order. It can make a difference!

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 Post subject: Re: Rules questions
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 9:42 pm 
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I'd like to clarify something while we're on this subject. If I'm firing, for example, a Falcon detachment at a squad of six Space Marine Devastators, I never bother to allocate dice, unless I want multiple shots to target one stand. The reason is that the Falcons fire the same weapon and all the Devastators are identical, so I see no need to. Is this actually correct in accordance with the rules though? This discussion has confused me a bit.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules questions
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 8:22 am 
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Technically, that is not the correct way to do it. You should be specifying exactly how many shots are being directed at each specific stand. By doing it in the way you described, you are firing at the Detachment as a whole and removing casualties at random, which as is shown above is the wrong way to do it for this game.

However, if your opponent is fine with you not specifying (as seems to be the case) then that is fine too.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules questions
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2016 8:08 pm 
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That's what I thought you'd say, so I checked Space Marine Titan Legions to see if the rules were different, but they are not. Page 25 highlights that you select targets in the same way. The example given is that six Space Marine Devastators fire at three opposing troop stands and opt to fire two shots at each stand, so two dice are rolled for each stand in sequence, rather than in a large batch.

Strange how the memory plays tricks, as I was sure the rule for Titan Legions was different.

Thanks for the clarification Magnus :).

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 Post subject: Re: Rules questions
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2016 1:06 am 
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For Squats (and other armies as well I suppose) are special units such as Living Ancestor, Grand Warlord etc also infantry?

This, of course in relation to the Squat Close Combat Mastery. The rule states;
Quote:
Due their resilience and skill in Close Combat, Squat infantry may
reroll any “1” on one or both Close Combat dice. Due to the intense hatred
of Orks, any Squat infantry stand fighting Orks can re-roll any die that
comes up a 1 or 2. This bonus applies only to Squat infantry and not walkers,
bikes or other units
. Each stand may only reroll dice once per turn.


Since Ancestor Lords and even Heathguards are not organized under the infantry section in the armylist, a rules-lawyer could argue that these are not infantry and may not benefit from the Close Combat Mastery rule. However, if they are not infantry there would also be a problem with pinning clases.


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 Post subject: Re: Rules questions
PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2016 9:54 pm 
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Yeah, they are Infantry. Despite being off in their own sub-list, the way the stand is composed means that it could only be Infantry or Light Artillery and the base contains no visible, discrete weapons (IE, Mole Mortar, Thudd Gun, etc), thus they have to be Infantry.

Anyone who would seriously try to argue that an Ancestor Lord is not Infantry is not someone that a reasonable person should play against, unless you have no choice. Even then, I'd likely look askance at such a person and say: "Seriously? You must be joking."

@Irisado: Yeah, I've had to look up more than a few old rules myself recently. You are welcome.

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