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Rules questions

 Post subject: Rules questions
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:45 am 
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So after reading the core rulebook and thinking some of the rules over I have a few questions:

1. Each model in a detachment must stay within 6 cm of another model in the detachment. For e.g. spacemarine+rhinos in a single detachment does that mean that: If the detachment recieves charge orders (the space marines start mounted in the rhinoes) the rhino can double move minus 5 cm. Then the marines are able to leave the vehichle and charge forward double move minus the 5 cm. But this brings them further than 6 cm away from the rhinoes so they need to form a "chain" of stands to keep formation with the rhinoes?

1.b. When e.g. guardians and falcons are in the same detachment they have to be issued the same order. It is not possible to give the falcon charge orders to bring the guardians forward and then for the guardians to jump out with advance orders to shoot something, correct?

2. If I buy e.g. wave serpents as a seperate detachment and exarchs as a seperate detachment. If I choose to start the game with the exarchs mounted in the waveserpents do they count as one detachment or two? The eldar book says:

"When carrying troops the Wave Serpents must maintain coherency as if it were a part of the infantry unit, in the fashion of other transport vehicles"

So in that scenario the wave serpents can double move forward and the exarchs can jump out and move up 6 cm and form a chain to keep coheriency with the wave serpents (for the rest of the game?). So they are "stuck" with the wave serpents following them the rest of the game so to speak.

But if the exarch start the game next to the wave serpents they are seperate units, right? Then they can board the wave serpents in one turn and the wave serpents charge forward. Then next turn both can charge and the exarchs are not bound by the coheriency with the wave serpents and can leave them behiend?

3. Wave serpents shield. If I fire it in the order phase of turn 2 and move about my business. it will reappear:

"Remove the template after use and replace at the beginning of the following turn."

So can I fire off the wave again turn 3? Reading the rules as printed the shield appears at the beginning of the turn and the shield have to be fired before the order phase so I would assume I can, but not quite clear to me.

4. The doom weaver templates are a bit confusing. Shooting and resolving them is no problem. But then the rule state that:

"To keep track of this, in the End Phase remove any un-numbered templates, and flip numbered templates to their un-numbered sides. Any buildings or significant terrain that is covered by web will be impassable for the rest of the game. This unit may not may pop-up attacks."

The bolded part confuses me. So if I shoot the web into e.g. a forest the templates will dissapate over 2 turns, BUT the terrain will be impassible for the rest of the game....which means that the templates did not in fact get removed, but are still blocking movement?

Additionally I am uncertain what the templates do when left for the 2 turns. Models that enter the area get another to-hit roll? If they are missed are they allowed to pass over it? Does it block line of sight (I assume not).

5. Vibro cannon (yes, i might have question for everything in the eldar armylist). If I have 3 vibro cannons and I aim them at the same unit, lets say that all 3 hits the target. Will the target have to save 3 times at -2, 3 times at 0;-1;-2 or one time at -2?

6. Warp hunter and Cobra. Are they allowed to fire indirectly? They have a template and unlike other units with barage like the void spinner and scorpion they do not have a clause that states "may not fire indirectly".

7. Can infantry start mounted in fliers? I assume they then replace the normal transport, but does the flier and the infantry then have to adhere to unit coherency like in the wave serpent expample (I assume not as it seems counter intuitive, but the rules does not mention it).

8. The flier rules are a bit unclear (I understand they have also been debated a lot on the forums). If e.g. I have a vampire with infantry that I want to fly and land my infantry (which will come out guns blazing). So my flier will end movement in the "ground" altitude. But during movement for the sake of snapfire what altitude is the flier going ? This is also relevant for e.g. phoenix bombers on a bomb run, what altitude are they using during the movement (to trace LoS for AA snap fire etc.)

Kind regards
Ronnie Nielsen

P.S. I am certain I will fill this thread with more question as they pop op, especially once we get some more gameplay in our new epic group :)


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 Post subject: Re: Rules questions
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 12:59 am 
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Apologies, I had to fix all of the typos. Those red wavy lines just bother me... :)

Ronnie_Nielsen wrote:
So after reading the core rulebook and thinking some of the rules over I have a few questions:

1. Each model in a detachment must stay within 6 cm of another model in the detachment. For e.g. Space Marine + Rhinos in a single detachment does that mean that: If the detachment receives charge orders (the space marines start mounted in the Rhinos) the rhino can double move minus 5 cm. Then the marines are able to leave the vehicle and charge forward double move minus the 5 cm. But this brings them further than 6 cm away from the Rhinos so they need to form a "chain" of stands to keep formation with the Rhinos?


Correct.

Ronnie_Nielsen wrote:
1.b. When e.g. guardians and falcons are in the same detachment they have to be issued the same order. It is not possible to give the falcon charge orders to bring the guardians forward and then for the guardians to jump out with advance orders to shoot something, correct?


A Guardian Defender formation would act in this way, yes. Note that if you purchase a Guardian formation and a Falcon formation separately, you may use the Falcons as Transports for the Guardians AND give each detachment different orders. This holds for most combinations for most factions, but see next question.

Ronnie_Nielsen wrote:
2. If I buy e.g. Wave Serpents as a separate detachment and Exarchs as a separate detachment. If I choose to start the game with the Exarchs mounted in the Wave Serpents do they count as one detachment or two? The Eldar book says:

"When carrying troops the Wave Serpents must maintain coherency as if it were a part of the infantry unit, in the fashion of other transport vehicles"

So in that scenario the wave serpents can double move forward and the Exarchs can jump out and move up 6 cm and form a chain to keep coherency with the wave serpents (for the rest of the game?). So they are "stuck" with the wave serpents following them the rest of the game so to speak.

But if the Exarch start the game next to the wave serpents they are separate units, right? Then they can board the wave serpents in one turn and the wave serpents charge forward. Then next turn both can charge and the Exarchs are not bound by the coherency with the wave serpents and can leave them behind?


They count as two detachments for Orders, Break Point, and Victory Points, but as one detachment for coherency.

The Wave Serpent is an odd exception to the standard rules. Whether the Exarch begin the game loaded up in the Wave Serpents or not is irrelevant. As soon as the Exarchs (or any troops) board the Wave Serpents, they must all keep coherency from that point on. The rule that you quoted above (in italics) is a special rule for the Wave Serpent. [At least, this is how I view it. Other people may have other opinions.]

Ronnie_Nielsen wrote:
3. Wave serpents shield. If I fire it in the order phase of turn 2 and move about my business. it will reappear:

"Remove the template after use and replace at the beginning of the following turn."

So can I fire off the wave again turn 3? Reading the rules as printed the shield appears at the beginning of the turn and the shield have to be fired before the order phase so I would assume I can, but not quite clear to me.


Correct. That's how I see it as well.

Ronnie_Nielsen wrote:
4. The Doom Weaver templates are a bit confusing. Shooting and resolving them is no problem. But then the rule state that:

"To keep track of this, in the End Phase remove any un-numbered templates, and flip numbered templates to their un-numbered sides. Any buildings or significant terrain that is covered by web will be impassable for the rest of the game. This unit may not may pop-up attacks."

The bold part confuses me. So if I shoot the web into e.g. a forest the templates will dissipate over 2 turns, BUT the terrain will be impassible for the rest of the game....which means that the templates did not in fact get removed, but are still blocking movement?

Additionally I am uncertain what the templates do when left for the 2 turns. Models that enter the area get another to-hit roll? If they are missed are they allowed to pass over it? Does it block line of sight (I assume not).


Correct, the templates are removed when in open terrain, but effectively remain in play if they hit a building or other "significant terrain", the latter of which is a confusing term. I've always played that they block Line-Of-Sight, and there are a few Psychic Powers and other effects that can cause a model to move onto a template unwillingly, so while in play the templates create new hazardous terrain that most models will want to stay away from.

Ronnie_Nielsen wrote:
5. Vibro cannon (yes, i might have question for everything in the Eldar army list). If I have 3 Vibro cannons and I aim them at the same unit, lets say that all 3 hits the target. Will the target have to save 3 times at -2, 3 times at 0;-1;-2 or one time at -2?


It would be one hit on the target in total, with the TSM varying based on how many Vibro-Cannons hit the target.

Ronnie_Nielsen wrote:
6. Warp hunter and Cobra. Are they allowed to fire indirectly? They have a template and unlike other units with barrage like the void spinner and scorpion they do not have a clause that states "may not fire indirectly".


Warp Hunter probably no. The Warp Hunter specifies that the template must initially be placed within Line-of-sight, so that would preclude an indirect firing. Admittedly, it then scatters twice, and so could actually open at a location that is out of LOS.

Cobra, possibly yes. The Cobra only specifies "within firing arc and range" and then scatters anyway. It could almost be said to always be firing indirectly, though that is not actually stated. If it were allowed to fire indirectly, it should probably scatter a second time.

Ronnie_Nielsen wrote:
7. Can infantry start mounted in fliers? I assume they then replace the normal transport, but does the flier and the infantry then have to adhere to unit coherency like in the Wave Serpent example (I assume not as it seems counter intuitive, but the rules does not mention it).


Correct, any separate formation bought to transport models that normally come with transport models replace the default transports. (Examples of this would be Marine Drop Pods and the Thunderhawk.) Still, with Eldar all you have to do is buy a Guardian formation rather than a Defender formation and you are fine.

As far as I am aware, any model may begin the game loaded into any other model that may carry it. As stated above, the only time that coherency must be maintained is when all models are part of the same formation when purchased and in a few rare cases (like the aforementioned Wave Serpents). In other words, unless the specific Flyer's description mentioned having to maintain coherency with the models it carries, then it does not.

Ronnie_Nielsen wrote:
8. The flier rules are a bit unclear (I understand they have also been debated a lot on the forums). If e.g. I have a vampire with infantry that I want to fly and land my infantry (which will come out guns blazing). So my flier will end movement in the "ground" altitude. But during movement for the sake of snap fire what altitude is the flier going ? This is also relevant for e.g. phoenix bombers on a bomb run, what altitude are they using during the movement (to trace LOS for AA snap fire etc.)

Kind regards
Ronnie Nielsen

P.S. I am certain I will fill this thread with more question as they pop op, especially once we get some more game-play in our new epic group :)


Yes, the Flyer rules are a bit odd. Do note that Gold contains two separate Flyer systems. The first system is entirely on page 24, while the second takes up pages 25 and 26. They are not entirely compatible.

The Vampire would begin the turn at whatever altitude it ended the last turn at, or whatever altitude you specified during the Orders phase if this is the first turn. When it activates, it is considered to spend the majority of it's turn at the altitude it began at. At the end of it's Move, it may end at any of the three altitudes. Note that only Flyers that are also Transports are allowed to land during a battle.


No worries about the questions. We are always glad to help.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules questions
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 2:30 am 
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Hi!

My thanks Magnus. I knew you'd answer in your usual knowledgeable and detailed manner. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Rules questions
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 6:08 am 
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Good work Magnus. This is an interesting read as there were a few things I had forgotten about, such as the Wave Serpents having to stay in coherency with their troops. Of course, some of it no longer applies due to me playing a slightly different version of the rules.

I'd like to point out that there is an optional rule about transports on page 17 of the Gold rule book where they can break away from the troops once they have dropped them off. This is what I have been playing for a while. It means the likes of Rhinos which effectively become useless once they have dropped off their cargo can at least become an irritant for enemy forces.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules questions
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 6:33 am 
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Thanks for the answers. They confirmed my understanding, more or less. The spelling you just have to forgive ;)

The only rule that "baffles" me is the wave serpent rule. The rules refers to a general rule for all transports, while at the same time being a unique rule for the wave serpents. I cant think up any reason why wave serpents need a restriction that severly limits their usage as a transport (seeing that they have a shield for this exact purpose; transport and protection).

If they transport e.g. dark reapers which will stay in one place for the rest of the game the wave serpents are borderline useless after they finish the transport (yes, I will use grav tanks instead, but just a shame as wave serpents seem like an interesting transport option).

Is it intentional that the wave serpents act in a manner unlike all other transports (when bought as a seperate detachment) in the game? Locally I will try to convince the gaming group that the rule is not needed as it seems borderline dumb that my gravtanks can go claim objectives and contribute to the game (outside of also shooting) after their transport duty is over, but the waveserpent is gonna follow the unit around. I am trying to understand the reasoning behiend the sever limitation to wave serpents?

Out of curiosity; what happens if the exarchs (from the first post, the ones that used the wave serpents as transport) exit the wave serpent and afterwards some nearby guardians attempt to use the wave serpent as transport? Are they denied entrance to the wave serpent by angry pilots or are the "loyalty" of the wave serpent transfered to the guardians which now have to be shadowed untill they die or the game ends?

P.S. the coheriency rule for wave serpents is not just refering to the fact that transported units have to keep coheriency even while being transported (as with other transports)? Meaning that if 3 guardian stands jump into a wave serpent then they cant be transported away from the 4th stand from the same detachment (outside of 6 cm) by the wave serpents. That was one of the ways I read the limitation noted and that would follow the rules of "normal" transports without giving the wave serpent a special status (while refering to a rule that counts for all transports (not detachments)).

P.P.S. The more I read the special rule the more my interpertation of keeping the infantry together make sense. If i have 4 guardians in a singe detachment I am allowed to board a vampire with only 2 of them while the other 2 stay on the ground, but then the vampire is not allowed to move more than 6 cm away from the stand on the ground as it is not allowed to break the infantry units coherency.
Therefore I could also say:

"When carrying troops the Vampire must maintain coherency as if it were a part of the infantry unit, in the fashion of other transport vehicles"

Now the statement makes sense because it is a general statement that counts for all transport vehicles (hence the reference "in the fasion of other transport vehicles") as none of them are allowed to break unit coherency when transporting models.

Kind regards
Ronnie


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 Post subject: Re: Rules questions
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 7:02 am 
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oh, and another slightly related question.

Say I have a marine and a rhino. The marine is standing next to the rhino and its the order phase. I want the marine to move as far as humanly possible in the next turn. Is it correct that a marine in the same detachment as the rhino can move further than a marine that is in a seperate detachment from the rhino?

If in the same detachment they recieve one charge order. The marine uses 5 cm to enter, the rhino moves 40 cm forward, the marine unloads and moves 6 cm forward (have to stay in formation, but second marine in same detachment could move the full 10 cm away from the rhino). Both have used 10 cm to board and unboard the marine. The end result is 46 cm movement forward for the marine.

If in seperate detachments, they recieve 2 charge orders. The marine activates first and boards the rhino. Afterwards the rhino activates and moves 45 cm forward (since the marine is unable to unboard untill next activation). This gives a total movement of 45 cm forward (and the marine is still mounted).

The fun part is that the 2 detachment configuration moves further if we add a turn as they do not need to stay in coherency unlike the one detachment configuration.

Though very theoretical and only small difference I am trying to understand the rules and wanted to see if its correct?

Also, weapons that caouse multiple wounds, do they remove 1 void shield or the number of wounds that are caused? Seems tyranids are very easy prey compared to titans id one shot only removes one shield?

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 Post subject: Re: Rules questions
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 1:36 pm 
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Sorry, but what I described is how the Wave Serpent is intended to act. Unlike normal transport models (that do not begin attached), they do attach to a specific formation of Infantry for the rest of that game. That is exactly how GW designed them to work back in 2nd edition Epic (I just checked, and yes it's in the Renegades book as well).

That said, the intent of the Wave Serpent is that they would be used for Harlequins, Howling Banshees, or some Close Combat type of troops that need protection while getting to the front lines. Using them with Dark Reapers is outside of their standard mission parameters, and thus will be less than ideal, as you noted.

Correct, the Guardians would be denied access to the Wave Serpents in that case, as they have been "attached" to the Exarchs for that battle. The Wave Serpents would hardly be 'useless' even in such a case, as - with careful positioning - they could fire their shields every turn to disrupt enemy movements in the vicinity.

Your point about having to maintain coherency of the models in a formation when some are carried and others are not IS accurate and correct, but does not negate the special rule for the Wave Serpent. As mentioned, the Wave Serpent is behaving as intended. As you have probably noticed, this game has a lot of places where general rules are changed, bent, or outright broken by specific models.

As The Bissler mentioned, there is that optional rule on page 17. I seem to recall that even when they are separate detachments (IE, two orders), that they can be activated together. I'll look that up later.

Not sure about the multiple wounds vs Shields question. I'll have to look at that a bit later today.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules questions
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:17 pm 
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Once you've dropped off your Exarchs you should think about firing the Wave Serpent shields on the following turn as Magnus suggests. They fire 20-120 depending on the roll you make. If you are able to fire them through a whole line of enemy forces you can effectively disable those units for an entire turn. It can be absolutely devastating (I was on the receiving end a few months ago and a close game suddenly became a shooting gallery for the Eldar). Note that when the field is fired it will keep going for full range, even through terrain like woods and buildings. It's bloody outrageous!

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 Post subject: Re: Rules questions
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2015 9:08 pm 
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Thanks for the clarification!

I also grabbed my renegades book and you are correct! Too long since I played that it seems :)

So only the void shield and multiple wounds question and I am an enlightened man...at least more. ( tried searching the gold rulebook but search dident come up with anything in regards to void shields...or my abilities are simply limited which might very well be the case)

Thanks for all the help. Makes for better games as we wont screw up the rules, at least the ones I asked about.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules questions
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2015 7:57 am 
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Another question:

1. Anyone know the answer to the question on weapons that cause multiple wounds and void shields (remove 1 void shield or number of wounds caused)?

2. How does holofield works with harpoon missile. The holo field is not a void shield and it states that it hits automatically. But I assume the eldar titan is allowed a holofield save to avoid the harpoon?
Seems powerful that the missile more or less ensures that the eldar titan is out of action from the start unless the holofield offers some protection? (even then the eldar titan is very weak to harpoon missile as it has no shields that needs to be brought down first and can be shot as the first action, but everything has a weakness so thats okay).

3. Is it correct that the point balance is way off for some units? (might be why you are woring on the formula). An example is the phoenix bomber (eldar) vs maruader destroyer (imperial guard). The phoenix bomber costs 2,25 times as much, but they have nearly identical stats. I assume thats just how it is but have to ask?

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 Post subject: Re: Rules questions
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2015 6:16 pm 
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1) Are you talking about weapons like the Pulsar that cause multiple hits? If so, yes to what you suggest; if a Pulsar fired upon a Titan with 3 void shields and managed to roll 5 hits, the Titan's 3 shields would be knocked down and then the Titan would receive 2 hits beyond that. Does this help?

2) I would say that the Eldar Titan would receive its Holofield save and, if failed, you would apply the effects of the Harpoon Missile. I agree that Eldar Titans can be taken down with one shot but with years of experience I can tell you that I've had more a lot problems trying to take an Eldar Titan down in a game than destroying one after one or two hits.

3) Yup. Games Workshop plucked figures out of the air for most of the forces so there are many instances where points values seem way out of balance. You're right, I'm sure Magnus embarked upon the Points Formula in order to make all units costed properly on the basis of a mathematical formula. I've played a number of games with it and it's pretty good (although some fine tuning is still going on), I'd recommend you give them a go - more play testers are welcome!

Please let us know how you get on! ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Rules questions
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2015 7:27 pm 
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Thanks for the help. Answered all the questions so Im all set

Currently our 5 man group is busy hoarding and buying model for our armies. This is all preperation for the actual action. We have played a couple of times only

Once we have some experience we have talked about branching out to try other systems, but netepic gold will be first stop for us.


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 Post subject: Re: Rules questions
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 6:10 am 
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And more questions:

1. The howling banshee and striking scorpion have a wording that says:

"Lacking power to be effective versus armored targets, they only gain this benefit against Infantry, Cavalry, and
non-robotic Light Artillery units that do not have a fixed armor save"

Depending on how I read the wording I am uncertain if their powers work against Ogryns. Ogryns is infantry with a fixed save.

So my question is if the fixed save refers to the non-robotic light artillery or their powers are nullified against all targets with a fixed save?

2. HQ units and targeting

If there is a squad of e.g. 3 Leeman Russ and one of them works as a HQ I can not target the HQ unless it is the nearest. Say I want to use a titan to kill the formation and start assigning dice to the predators. Am I allowed to assign any attacks to the HQ or do I need to distribute all the dice to the two "sidekicks", kill them and then use my next unit/turn to kill the remaining HQ? Or can I make an even distribution where the HQ gets the same or less attacks as the two sidekicks?

3. Holo field on knights

Eldar knights have a holofield and a normal armor save. Does it work like on the titans where they get both a holofield save and then the normal save? Or are the knights forced to choose between the two saves each time a hit has to be saved?

4. Waystone

For wraithguards and wraithlords the rules states they have to be within 10 cm of a living eldar or be forced to charge towards one. I assume that one model in the detachment must be within 10 cm or the detachment must charge the nearest living eldar? (somehwat similiar to how the command structure of IG works in a sense)

If it is each model there are certain situations where part of a detachment have to charge towards a living eldar and the other part of the detachment is already close to a living eldar. Would also mean that deploying a wraith host would clump every model into one large 10 cm radius pile instead of beaing able to have a warlord center with units spreading out.


Last edited by Ronnie_Nielsen on Wed Aug 12, 2015 7:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules questions
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 7:11 am 
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1. Ogryn are an interesting example because I would have expected the Banshee attack to work as normal and also for the 3D6+6 to apply for the Striking Scorpions. My understanding though is that if something has a fixed save then the Banshees wouldn't get their attack and the Scorpions would roll 1D6 + 6 in CC.

2. You can't assign target dice to an HQ unit unless it is the closest of its type to your unit. This is particularly infuriating when playing against IG who have Section HQs in every unit. The only way to get them is to clear the non-HQ units as you desribe. You may not have to wait until the next turn to get at the HQ if you have other units still to fire after you have destroyed the non-HQ units. I'm not sure about the rules on this, but I certainly play that barrages can catch HQ units under their burst but only if the HQ unit is not specifically targeted.

3. I don't play Knights so don't know. I would be surprised if both the saves do not apply in the usual way - roll Holofield save and if that is failed, roll for your usual save.

Hope this helps!

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 Post subject: Re: Rules questions
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 7:52 am 
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The Ogryn (and terminators) is also what suprised me as that renders the CC units of eldars unable to effeciently fight the CC troops of marines and IG. I understand that termies can get CAF 8 and ogryns are cheap as they are limited in their use so it all adds up. But if the fixed save gives them "aspect warrior" immunity the aspects are much more limited in use, near the IG and spacemarine CC troops. Would just have thought that more expensive aspect warriors would be able to beat ogryns in CC but as it stands striking scorpions gets their ass kicked by them :)

So thats also why I ask.

For the others I had the same understanding, just wanted to make sure. Thanks alot.

Anyone know the answer for 4. (and can confirm number 1)?

Ronnie


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