Tactical Command
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Alternative rules for Command Units and Barrage
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=172&t=28597
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Author:  Zoid [ Thu Nov 27, 2014 2:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Alternative rules for Command Units and Barrage

Hey there,

i am happy to hear, that you guys are oviously working on Netepic Platinum. I really enjoy playing Netepic Gold very much. But i think the rule that you may not lay Barrages were they cover command units is not a good one. Intention was always to help command units not beeing sniped by direct shots, this is the way it should be. But Barrages should not make any diffence between command units and the file an rank units. Besides that it favors Orks in a manner that i dont like.

Having a situation in wich a mob of orks is equally mixed up with command units it is nearly impossible to shot at them mith multi Barage missiles, as i cannot place the templates that cover command units.

It should work that way: Place the Barrages normally that means also cover command units and resolve hits and saves as normal, but take casuties from the Mob even uncovered stands for hits on command units.

I hope i made clear what i wanted to say...

Keep on going with your very good work!

Zoid

Author:  primarch [ Thu Nov 27, 2014 7:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative rules for Command Units and Barrage

Zoid wrote:
Hey there,

i am happy to hear, that you guys are oviously working on Netepic Platinum. I really enjoy playing Netepic Gold very much. But i think the rule that you may not lay Barrages were they cover command units is not a good one. Intention was always to help command units not beeing sniped by direct shots, this is the way it should be. But Barrages should not make any diffence between command units and the file an rank units. Besides that it favors Orks in a manner that i dont like.

Having a situation in wich a mob of orks is equally mixed up with command units it is nearly impossible to shot at them mith multi Barage missiles, as i cannot place the templates that cover command units.

It should work that way: Place the Barrages normally that means also cover command units and resolve hits and saves as normal, but take casuties from the Mob even uncovered stands for hits on command units.

I hope i made clear what i wanted to say...

Keep on going with your very good work!

Zoid


Hi!

That is not a bad idea Zoid!

Basically, if I am interpreting correctly your idea, is that the HQ unit would be the last one to be eliminated in such an attack, only removed when other eligible units are removed first.

Only a special ability like sniper would be able to eliminate the HQ unit first.

Primarch

Author:  Irisado [ Thu Nov 27, 2014 7:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative rules for Command Units and Barrage

Quote:
This protection applies to template weapons as well
– the template may not cover the HQ unit unless it meets one of the two
requirements.


This appears to be the offending sentence.

I'd suggest that another way to solve this might be to stipulate that with multiple blasts/templates, this only applies to the first template/blast.

Otherwise, Zoid's idea seems like a sensible minor revision.

Author:  The Bissler [ Thu Nov 27, 2014 11:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative rules for Command Units and Barrage

It's an interesting point raised here. It's also a big problem with the IG what with Section HQs & Commissars all over the place. It would be a very gamey thing to do, but you could protect larger units just by placing these HQs next to them.
My worry is that if we change the rules you could have equally gamey opponents who start misusing barrages to take out HQs and cause chain of command issues.

Author:  Zoid [ Fri Nov 28, 2014 8:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative rules for Command Units and Barrage

@Primarch: you got me absolutely right!
@Irisado: Yes minor and easy to resolve.

@The Bissler: Actually in my opinion, the Rule as it is, is missused by the Ork player i am playing aigainst very often, by positioning his Nobs mixed with boys, in a manner that the are no valid target for me and my barrages.

Me thinks that barrages are for cleansing an Area and the best protection against that should be cover and not near by HQ units. How the Hell could a comissar protect an tactical guard platoon from incomming barrages? Thats why i suggested to allow them as valid targets, but still they are no valid casualties, as the normal Guradsmen/boys/SM... die befor the HQ unit does. But those are just my 50 cents and no dogma. Thanks for reading!

Author:  primarch [ Fri Nov 28, 2014 6:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative rules for Command Units and Barrage

Hi!

The more I think about it the more I am warming to Zoids idea.

Instead of twisting the rules to protect the HQ unit from easy targeting, let another casualty take its place. Only when the firing unit has an ability to specifically target them can they be removed as primary casualties.

Such a rule would cut down on a lot of verbiage in the rulebook.

Primarch

Author:  Irisado [ Sat Nov 29, 2014 11:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative rules for Command Units and Barrage

It would definitely cut down on the length of that rule. Interestingly, in SM2 and Titan Legions there was no rule for how to handle templates and barrages against command units. The only rule was that they could not be fired upon unless they were the closest target. They could still easily be caught by barrage hitting nearer stands, and clipping/covering the command unit too though, and that's how I used to play it.

Zoid's idea would give them some more protection, but not excessive protection. I just think that we need to be careful with the wording. Oh, and play test it of course :).

Author:  The Bissler [ Sat Nov 29, 2014 11:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative rules for Command Units and Barrage

Zoid wrote:

@The Bissler: Actually in my opinion, the Rule as it is, is missused by the Ork player i am playing aigainst very often, by positioning his Nobs mixed with boys, in a manner that the are no valid target for me and my barrages.

Me thinks that barrages are for cleansing an Area and the best protection against that should be cover and not near by HQ units. How the Hell could a comissar protect an tactical guard platoon from incomming barrages? Thats why i suggested to allow them as valid targets, but still they are no valid casualties, as the normal Guradsmen/boys/SM... die befor the HQ unit does. But those are just my 50 cents and no dogma. Thanks for reading!


I think that's a real shame that your opponent is abusing the rules like this. Not in the spirit of the game at all IMO.

As a footnote I think it is worth saying in the revised wording that if CUs are on their own they cannot be targeted by barrages unless they are the closest unit.

Author:  primarch [ Sat Nov 29, 2014 6:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative rules for Command Units and Barrage

Hi!

After so many years playing, I'm used to seeing "gamesmanship". I consider it the norm, not an exception. I view it as stress testing the rules. So when I see something like that I think about how the rules can remedy.

Zoid's idea, I think, remedies it quite well.

Primarch

Author:  The Bissler [ Sun Nov 30, 2014 1:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative rules for Command Units and Barrage

I hope he doesn't mind me sharing his comment bu Mattman came up with an excellent solution to this problem on the FB group;

"Sort of treat it [the barrage template] like an automatic "Look out sir", you hit all stands under the template, but you can only remove HQ units if they are the closest."

This preserves the rule of not being able to target HQs & allows you to target other units with the barrage without harming the HQ also caught up in the explosion.

I realise that this isn't that plausible from the point of view of realism but I think it will avoid a lot of annoyance for players using the likes of Orks and IG who may see opponents misusing barrages to take out their HQs & cause command rule problems.

Author:  Irisado [ Sun Nov 30, 2014 11:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative rules for Command Units and Barrage

This also seems like a workable method to me :).

Author:  Mattman [ Sun Nov 30, 2014 1:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative rules for Command Units and Barrage

Sharing my comment on how to make Epic more playable ... how dare you sir :P ;D

Author:  Zoid [ Sun Nov 30, 2014 3:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative rules for Command Units and Barrage

It look like my problem is getting solved and i am very happy about that!

Author:  primarch [ Sun Nov 30, 2014 8:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative rules for Command Units and Barrage

Zoid wrote:
It look like my problem is getting solved and i am very happy about that!


Hi!

That's what net epic is all about. Discussing and solving things... at least every once and a while. ;)

Primarch

Author:  Grum [ Thu Dec 11, 2014 2:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative rules for Command Units and Barrage

I was for the "Look Out Sir" rule from the FB page as well. As an ork player, I never tried to mix my nobz in as a rule abuse, but I've had issues playing against IG that way. I think it's a great idea.

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