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Document Structure Discussion

 Post subject: Document Structure Discussion
PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 5:33 pm 
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So following some discussions that occurred on the Guard book topic (and other topics as well), it came out that maybe we need to set out a proper goal for the updates and what we see the structure of the game (what books/rules sets and how they are presented) being, so we all have a better idea of where we are going with the discussions.

So I thought I would start things off. This is just my opinion based on how I feel things should look from what I have read and from discussions I have had on the various topics. The naming convention is nothing official, just something I have added to able to reference them.

Rules

NetEpic Core Rule Book
The main rule book. Based on the current gold book but with updates as being discussed. Straight forward set of rules which you can pick up and play without worrying about extras, no optional rules. Name to be decided (Platinum, 7th Ed, whatever).

NetEpic Expanded Rules
Optional rules or additional ways to play the game. Players are free to use stuff from this book in their games as they see fit.

Army Lists

Space Marines – Classic
The basic Marine army book. Uses the current rules and formation structures, closely resembles 2nd Ed (with alterations as being discussed). Book covers everything you need to play a basic unnamed Marine Chapter (in the vein of Ultramarines). No Chapter specific rules, they will be in their own separate books.

Chapter Addendums
Each named Chapter to have an addendum document (starting with the standard ones and then adding the more obscure if people request them).
Each will be a mini document, something no more than half a 4-6 pages long (depending on amount of fluff) and will contain Chapter specific rules, units and formations for use in that chapter, along with restrictions if that Chapter is not allowed to use specific formations. It is to be read in conjunction with the normal Marine army book (basic stats and rules will not be replicated in the addendums).

Space Marines – Modern
An alternative army book for the Space Marine player. Formations updated to be more closely in line with those described in the current fluff and used by players in Epic Armageddon. Stats will remain unchanged, and will still use the 1 Special / 1 Company / 5 Support structure, but unit sizes will be different and therefore cost, VPs and break points will be different to the classic rules.
If time/interest allows, then Chapter addendums may also be produced for the modern army book.

Imperial Guard – Classic
Like the Marines, the basic Guard army book. Uses the current rules and formation structures, closely resembles 2nd Ed (with alterations and maybe some restrictions as being discussed). Book covers everything you need to play a basic Guard army.

Imperial Guard – Modern
Like the Marines, an alternative army book for the Guard player. Formations updated to be more standardised and potentially closer to those used by players in Epic Armageddon. Stats will remain unchanged, and will still use the 1 Special / 1 Company / 5 Support structure, but unit sizes will be different and therefore cost, VPs and break points will be different to the classic rules.

Eldar
The basic Eldar army book. Uses the current rules and formation structures, closely resembles 2nd Ed (with alterations as being discussed). Book covers everything you need to play a basic unnamed craftworld. No Craft world or Dark Eldar rules, they will be in their own separate books.

Craftworld Addendums
Each named Craftworld to have an addendum document (starting with the standard ones and then adding the more obscure if people request them).
Each will be a mini document, something no more than 4-6 pages long (depending on fluff) and will contain Craftworld specific rules, units and formations for use in that Craftworld, along with restrictions if that Craftworld is not allowed to use specific formations. It is to be read in conjunction with the normal Eldar army book (basic stats and rules will not be replicated in the addendums).

Dark Eldar
The basic Dark Eldar army book. Uses the current rules and formation structures (with alterations as discussed). Book covers everything you need to play a basic unnamed Dark Eldar army.

Squat
The basic Squat army book. Uses the current rules and formation structures, closely resembles 2nd Ed (with alterations as being discussed). Book covers everything you need to play a basic unnamed Squat Clan. No variant Clan rules, they will be in their own separate books.

Clan Addendums
Each named Clan to have an addendum document (starting with the standard ones and then adding the more obscure if people request them).
Each will be a mini document, something no more than 4-6 pages long (depending on fluff) and will contain Clan specific rules, units and formations for use in that Clan, along with restrictions if that Clan is not allowed to use specific formations. It is to be read in conjunction with the normal Squat army book (basic stats and rules will not be replicated in the addendums).

Chaos
The basic Chaos army book. Uses the current rules and formation structures, closely resembles 2nd Ed (with alterations as being discussed). Book covers everything you need to play a Chaos force.

Adeptus Mechanicus (Titan Legions and Knights)
The basic Ad Mech army book. Uses the current rules and formation structures, closely resembles 2nd Ed (with alterations as being discussed). Book covers everything you need to play an Ad Mech force.

Tyranids
The basic Tyranid army book. Uses the current rules and formation structures, closely resembles 2nd Ed (with alterations as being discussed). Book covers everything you need to play a Tyranid force.

Orks
The basic Ork army book. Uses the current rules and formation structures, closely resembles 2nd Ed (with alterations as being discussed). Book covers everything you need to play an Ork force.

Sisters of Battle
The basic Sisters army book. Uses the current rules and formation structures (with alterations as discussed). Book covers everything you need to play a basic unnamed Sisters army.

Tau
The basic Tau army book. Uses the current rules and formation structures (with alterations as discussed). Book covers everything you need to play a basic unnamed Tau army. No Necron rules, they will be in their own separate book.

Necron
The basic Necron army book. Uses the current rules and formation structures (with alterations as discussed). Book covers everything you need to play a basic unnamed Necron army.

As I said, these are just my thoughts on how I would like to see things presented. Anyone else have any views?

Regards,

Matt


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 Post subject: Re: Document Structure Discussion
PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 5:55 pm 
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Sorry I have nothing to add, but thought it is worthwhile to state that I approve of all of the above.

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 Post subject: Re: Document Structure Discussion
PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 6:05 pm 
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With the chapter/clan/craftworld/whatever specific documents, do you really think there is enough information for each of them to warrant separate documents? I was kinda envisioning the generic army book and then a single document that contained all of the specific chapters, but laid out in such a way that players could easily print JUST the 2-3 pages for their chapter if they wanted.

If we do go with separate documents, we need to make sure that the download section of the web site is laid out clearly so that anyone seeing it can figure out what documents go together. One of the things that was a bit off putting to me when I first started investigating NE was that I couldn't quite figure out what documents were what when going to download them.

I can see benefits to both approaches. Unified documents make it easier for new players to figure out what they need, and can keep the website more organized, separate documents make it easier to update and add new chapter rules in the future. Something to discuss, maybe.

Also, I don't care about chaos myself, but I know that in 40K Chaos Space Marine players have been complaining for years about not having legion specific rules in the same way loyalists have unique chapter rules. Is that something we should be covering?

What about Slann? Your list doesn't mention them but they are currently included in with the necrons (something I don't particularly like). I think you mixed up Slann and Tau, as your description of the Tau book mentions Necrons.

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 Post subject: Re: Document Structure Discussion
PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 7:45 pm 
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ForgottenLore wrote:
With the chapter/clan/craftworld/whatever specific documents, do you really think there is enough information for each of them to warrant separate documents? I was kinda envisioning the generic army book and then a single document that contained all of the specific chapters, but laid out in such a way that players could easily print JUST the 2-3 pages for their chapter if they wanted.


Hell, I would be happy if everything squeezed on 2 sides of A4, I was just covering my ass if someone wanted to fill it with fluff ::)

ForgottenLore wrote:
If we do go with separate documents, we need to make sure that the download section of the web site is laid out clearly so that anyone seeing it can figure out what documents go together. One of the things that was a bit off putting to me when I first started investigating NE was that I couldn't quite figure out what documents were what when going to download them.

I can see benefits to both approaches. Unified documents make it easier for new players to figure out what they need, and can keep the website more organized, separate documents make it easier to update and add new chapter rules in the future. Something to discuss, maybe.


I got a bit confused myself. When I got back into the game I downloaded several version 5 docs before getting the right ones. I am sure we can get the download section laid out for the new documents.

ForgottenLore wrote:
Also, I don't care about chaos myself, but I know that in 40K Chaos Space Marine players have been complaining for years about not having legion specific rules in the same way loyalists have unique chapter rules. Is that something we should be covering?

What about Slann? Your list doesn't mention them but they are currently included in with the necrons (something I don't particularly like). I think you mixed up Slann and Tau, as your description of the Tau book mentions Necrons.


Well addendum documents could be done for legions, it is another thing to consider.

Whoops, will make a quick edit.

Matt


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 Post subject: Re: Document Structure Discussion
PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 10:57 pm 
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Hi!

While I am tied up for the moment and will comment on this fully at a latter date, I want to give you a BIG thanks for bringing this up.

I have been pondering this issue of layout and organization for a LONG time and you have hit upon the key points.

Again, my thanks!

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Document Structure Discussion
PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:31 pm 
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No problem. The only other thing I missed was the eldar exodites and knights, which could be treated as their own mini army book.

For me it just seems easiest to have core basic army lists for each race and then have the more specific chapter / craftworld / legion etc as separate extras.

If anyone can come up with better names than classic, modern and addendum, then let me know.

Matt


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 Post subject: Re: Document Structure Discussion
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:27 pm 
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For those interested, this is something I knocked up in word for the Salamanders as an example of what an Addendum might look like:

Attachment:
Salamanders Chapter Addendum.JPG
Salamanders Chapter Addendum.JPG [ 108.5 KiB | Viewed 2547 times ]


A bit of fluff, the rules and then the stats.

Matt


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 Post subject: Re: Document Structure Discussion
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:45 pm 
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"Like"! This is what we need.

To avoid possible overlap, please note that I'm working on turning Dwarf Supreme's new damage tables into Excel & PDF documents; viewtopic.php?f=146&t=25734

The same is planned and already well into the process for Titan hit location charts. I should be able to post up sheets for Warlord, Warhound and Reaver Titans tonight.

I've also worked up a summary sheet for Net Epic Evolution. This will be easily adaptable to make it suitable for traditional / standard Net Epic. I am likely to post that one to the NEE thread though.

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 Post subject: Re: Document Structure Discussion
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 7:21 pm 
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Hi!

I like this. It has the information and the stat box tied to it for easy reference. Master tables can be made separately.

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 Post subject: Re: Document Structure Discussion
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2013 7:45 pm 
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Here's the data sheets I knocked together for the Warlord, Reaver and Warhound Titans.

If anyone wants Excel versions of these, feel free to pm me. I'll need a note of your email address to send them on.


Attachments:
Warlord Titan Hit Chart & Plasma.pdf [179.01 KiB]
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Reaver Titan Hit Chart & Plasma.pdf [178.98 KiB]
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Warhound Titan Hit Chart & Plasma.pdf [178.05 KiB]
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 Post subject: Re: Document Structure Discussion
PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2013 4:42 pm 
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I'm not sure about dividing craftworld rules from the main Eldar book, since there is some overlap between units, you'd end up having to post stat lines in multiple books for the same units, which seems a bit like making work for yourself to me. I think that it's better to keep craftworld variants in the Eldar book for that reason, but I definitely agree with separating Dark Eldar.

The same may also apply to Space Marines and their chapter variants.

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 Post subject: Re: Document Structure Discussion
PostPosted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 5:29 pm 
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Looking at the craftworlds, they each have their own specific formations and in some cases units, any unit that can be used by more than one craftworld is a basic unit, so all can use them, so those stats are in the main army book.

The main advantages for doing this for me are:

Cuts down the size of the books to make them easier to store, download, print and manage. For eldar this might only be half a dozen pages (not counting the removal of the Dark Eldar), but for marines that is close to 17 pages you can remove from the book. I know I would rather have a marine army list which is half the size of the current one and the relevant Salamanders Addendum than a dozen pages of stuff I will never look at.

Allows for new chapters/craftworlds to be added following a standard format. If a new chapter or craftworld starts to appear, we already have a way of incorporating rules for them into the game. Otherwise, would you redo the book to add them or if we have a stand alone document for them, then why not the rest.

Allows for easier editing and fixing of errors. Sure we are going through the process of trying to fix things, but I expect some problems will still creep through whether it be grammar or power level. For example, if the proposals we are putting forward for the Siam Hann Craftworld turns out to nerf them, then we only have a small document to update rather than the whole army book to fix them. Or if new models become available for a certain craftworld/chapter and we want to incorporate them, we only need to add a few lines to a small document.

Matt


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 Post subject: Re: Document Structure Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 12:41 pm 
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You end up having to carry around two separate books though if you split the craftworlds. This also means looking in two different books if you need to check the rules or stats for certain units. Having had experience of that in the past, I found it very irritating, so from my perspective, I still think that it would be better to keep all the Eldar craftworlds alongside the generic list.

As for creating more new lists, I think that there already more than enough army lists in the system without adding more.

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 Post subject: Re: Document Structure Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 3:35 pm 
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I would hardly call an extra sheet of paper a book. Each craftworld would have an addendum, not all the craftworlds in a separate document.

Irisado wrote:
As for creating more new lists, I think that there already more than enough army lists in the system without adding more.


Obviously that is your opinion, it doesn't mean we shouldn't keep the option open. NetEpic has already introduced many more lists compared to what we had in 2nd Ed and many more "Codex" lists as well

Matt


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 Post subject: Re: Document Structure Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 3:49 pm 
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My understanding was that all the craftworlds would be grouped together in one document, while the generic or vanilla craftworld would remain in the other book, according to your proposal. If the idea, conversely, is to have each craftworld as a separate document, then I don't see that being a better option either, since it would just be too small to warrant being split in the first place.

Splitting Dark Eldar from the current book, and indeed splitting Harlequins and Exodites, I can understand, but breaking off the craftworld lists just seems like extra work for little gain to me.

As for creating additional lists being a bad idea, yes, it is just my opinion :).

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