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Armour values from 40k to epic

 Post subject: Armour values from 40k to epic
PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 11:32 pm 
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Hi I am using 7th edition rules for the armour values for my house rules.

The max armor is 14 and the worst is 10.
For those not familiar with 40k to damage armour you need to hit then penetrate using the strength of the weapon plus a D6 roll. If you equal the armor it is a glancing hit and over it penetrates and does damage.

A stand of imperial guard shooting at a landraider can kill it currently if the landraider fails on a 1
In 40k they have zero chance to damage the paint.
Epic does not represent this well

The problem with this a D6 just doesn't cut it is not detailed enough.
So I changed to a d12

Armour value to save on d12
14 = 1+ ( Landraiders all around, Yes this makes marines very tough)
13 = 2+
12 = 3+
11 = 4+
10 = 5+
Terminator armour = 5+ fixed 11+ ( Use the best save either base or the fixed only one roll to save)
Power armour = 7+
Carapace = 9+
Flak = 11+

MODIFIERS to saving throw
Side shots -1
Rear shots -2
Buildings 1/2 the gun save modifier (Volcano cannon -6 save goes to -3 round down)
Imperator titans 1/2 the save modifier as buildings

BIG BEASTIES
Have base 10 armour plus a bonus from being tough
toughness 8-9 = +1 save on 4+
toughness 10 = +2 save on 3+

GUNS
How to figure out guns
Use the same range in 40k
Number of shots in 40k /5 = number of shots in epic since you have to kill 5 guys to remove a stand minimum 1
Twin linked main guns roll to hit per gun has to be the same target
An epic base is 5 guys can you kill 5 guys with that gun in 40k with one shot ?
If yes then its anti infantry
If no then its -2 to hit rolls since its an antitank gun like a laz cannon. (You try to get 5 guys to line up in a row to shoot )

WEAPON STRENGTH = SAVE MODIFIER
Str 3-4 = 0
Str 5-6 = -1
Str 7-8 = -2
Str 9 = -3
Str 10 = -4
Destroyer = -6
Heavy Destroyer (Titan weapon ) = -8 (yes a landraider can save this !)
Melta weapon roll 2 saves take the lower one.

Infantry without heavy weapons cannot hurt armour in 40k thus a compromise.
Each infantry stand that hits (after the first hit) one armoured target can add a -1 to the save of the target (combined fire)
Example 6 chaos cultists stands shoot at a landraider 1+ armour save they have zero chance to hurt it. They combine fire 3 of them hit the landraider takes one save at -2.
This gives infantry a chance. In this case it would be better to try to cc the landraider.

Alternative if you think this chart is too tough then drop all saves down 1 pip
Armour value to save on d12
Imperator 1+(reduce weapon save modifiers by 50% round up)
14 = 2+
13 = 3+
12 = 4+
11 = 5+
10 = 6+
Terminator armour = 6+ fixed 11+ ( Use the best save either base or the fixed only one roll to save)
Power armour = 8+
Carapace = 10+
This chart allows regular infantry to shoot anything except Imperrator class/Mega gargants.
Flak = 12+


Last edited by SquatWarlord on Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Armour values from 40k to epic
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 3:16 pm 
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Do recall that NetEpic is based off of 2nd edition Epic, which was largely based on 2nd to 3rd edition W40K. Thus it may have been possible, however unlikely, back then for Infantry to destroy a Land Raider. I'd have to look at my old books again to see if it was. Also remember the time differential between the games. In W40K, each turn is likely measured in seconds or minutes at the longest. In NetEpic Gold, each turn represents about a half an hour to an hour of fighting, maneuvering, etc.

While changing the die size in Platinum would be possible, it would be impractical. In my opinion anyway. Thus for any future conversions, please use the D6 convention as standard. Thanks.

That said, there could be an Optional book for converting the game to D12, D20, or whatever, (much like Bissler's Evolution system) so discussing this could still be useful.

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 Post subject: Re: Armour values from 40k to epic
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 6:59 pm 
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For my house rules I use d12s for shooting and armour saves. CC is still 2d6 as well as everything else that uses d6

Why I don't like a D6 for shooting/armour saves

I am shooting at a bunker hard cover -2 to hit with orc/imp/squats whatever hits on a 5-6 this a 7+ to hit
I need to roll a 6 then I have to roll again and get a 4 or 5 to actually hit.
So got to roll 2 dice to hit once kinda lame.

Warlord titan plasma destructor has an armour save modifier of -6 the only thing that can survive a hit is a Megagargant or an Imperator anything else dies.
Say you shoot a baneblade with one 1+ front armour, epic does not allow you to make save roll get a 6 then a 4,5,6 to save it but shooting does.
I think this is messy

I converted 40k armour values which go from 14 to 10 thats 5 pips
40k weapons go from 1str to 10str plus destroyer thats 11 pips.
In my opinion a d10 isn't big enough while a d12 works so much better.

In epic spacesmarines are kinda boring they shoot the same as imperial guards their armor saves are weak.

With a greater range on a dice you allow troops like spacemarines to come into their own and act and feel very different than imperial guard. Alot of infantry are pretty generic.

1 pip on d6 = 16.6% which is the same % on 2 pips for a d12 so easy to convert
Each pip on a d12 is 8% which allows far more flexibility in terms of modifiers.
If you limit the dice you limit the game.
Heck look at D&D/pathfinder you have d3 d4 d6 d8 d12 d20 d30 d100.
Dice are a tool to provide a random means to create representation of "Fog of war" for wargames.

The more tools you have to use the results are better no?


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 Post subject: Re: Armour values from 40k to epic
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:02 pm 
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Here is the thing. If you double the size of the die used (increasing from D6 to D12 is doubling), then you would also have to double all modifiers that affect those rolls. Thus the penalty to hit a target in a bunker would now be -4. The TSM of the Titan Plasma Destructor would now be -12. And so on. Not doubling the modifiers is seriously changing the balance of the entire game, and not in a good way.

Yes, the Plasma Destructor is designed to be able to take out nearly any other model in the game. That is its function and it is very good at it. That is why only the Warlord Titan can carry it, and it has the potential to destroy the entire Titan if it is damaged.

Yes, if a Superheavy with a 1+ save value is shot with the Plasma Destructor, it automatically fails its save. This is working as intended, as far as I can tell. It is not automatically destroyed however. It may still roll on the 'Super Heavy damage chart' on page 38 of the core rules to see if it survives.

The fact that a To Hit of 7+ may still be able to be rolled for but an Armor Save of 7+ being impossible goes back to 2nd edition Epic rules. As NetEpic is still mostly 2nd edition rules, this is still in effect. I would guess that the reasoning behind this was to allow for the possibility of difficult shots to hit so as to create more destruction and speed up the game, but not to allow the higher Saves so as to create more destruction and speed up the game by removing models quicker.

I do also play D&D 3.5, Pathfinder, and various other games. While I have toyed with the idea of trying to port Epic into a D20 based system, it would no longer be NetEpic if I did so. NetEpic uses the D6 standard, as 2nd edition did. Any change to that means that it is no longer NetEpic, but something else. You might want to talk with primarch (Peter Ramos) more directly, as he has probably done these conversions many times.

Yes, a lot of the Infantry in this game feel much the same. That is because of the scale of the game, as well as the lack of granularity. There really isn't all that much difference between a Guard Tactical stand and an Eldar Guardian stand at this scale.

I am confused however, when you say that Space Marines' Armor Save is weak compared to Imperial Guard, as a Tactical Guard stand gets no save and a Tactical Marine stand gets a 5+ save. That is the exact opposite of weak. Please explain (or at least, please make your statements more clear as that sentence is rather unclear).

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 Post subject: Re: Armour values from 40k to epic
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 10:04 pm 
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Here is the thing. If you double the size of the die used (increasing from D6 to D12 is doubling), then you would also have to double all modifiers that affect those rolls. Thus the penalty to hit a target in a bunker would now be -4. The TSM of the Titan Plasma Destructor would now be -12. And so on. Not doubling the modifiers is seriously changing the balance of the entire game, and not in a good way. I am not using existing modifiers I am converting from current 40k stats

Yes, the Plasma Destructor is designed to be able to take out nearly any other model in the game. That is its function and it is very good at it. That is why only the Warlord Titan can carry it, and it has the potential to destroy the entire Titan if it is damaged.There are stronger weapons now and plasma weapons have been reduced in strength but added a blast template I have balanced wound chance with armor save the warlord plasma annihilator has str 10 while a belicosa volcano cannon has str 30

Yes, if a Superheavy with a 1+ save value is shot with the Plasma Destructor, it automatically fails its save. This is working as intended, as far as I can tell. It is not automatically destroyed however. It may still roll on the 'Super Heavy damage chart' on page 38 of the core rules to see if it survives.In 40k it has a chance to bounce. Its also not much fun watching your 500 point baneblade company all die in one round without any chance to live.

The fact that a To Hit of 7+ may still be able to be rolled for but an Armor Save of 7+ being impossible goes back to 2nd edition Epic rules. As NetEpic is still mostly 2nd edition rules, this is still in effect. I would guess that the reasoning behind this was to allow for the possibility of difficult shots to hit so as to create more destruction and speed up the game, but not to allow the higher Saves so as to create more destruction and speed up the game by removing models quicker.was just a comparison to show that it wasn't equal to shooting

I do also play D&D 3.5, Pathfinder, and various other games. While I have toyed with the idea of trying to port Epic into a D20 based system, it would no longer be NetEpic if I did so. NetEpic uses the D6 standard, as 2nd edition did. Any change to that means that it is no longer NetEpic, but something else. You might want to talk with primarch (Peter Ramos) more directly, as he has probably done these conversions many times.A dice just represents fog of war to create a random chance. Many many games use a d6 yet all of these games are different due to different genres or rules. As I have said these are my personal house rules which are more detailed and they work even with a d12

Yes, a lot of the Infantry in this game feel much the same. That is because of the scale of the game, as well as the lack of granularity. There really isn't all that much difference between a Guard Tactical stand and an Eldar Guardian stand at this scale.Well the eldar should move faster than the imperials. Their guns only shoot 12cm, have 2 shots and can be used on charges

I am confused however, when you say that Space Marines' Armor Save is weak compared to Imperial Guard, as a Tactical Guard stand gets no save and a Tactical Marine stand gets a 5+ save. That is the exact opposite of weak. Please explain (or at least, please make your statements more clear as that sentence is rather unclear).Sorry I got my space marine netepic stats mixed up with the original spacemarinel

I am only hoping to get this going again most of these posts are over a year old and I am only trying to share all the effort and research I put into my house game.
Cheers


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 Post subject: Re: Armour values from 40k to epic
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 5:28 pm 
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Oh. I see now. Gotcha, you are just trying to share the alternate rules that you use in your home games. That makes more sense. The problem I was having was that you resurrected old threads to do so, which generally indicates that you are trying to continue the discussion that had ended long ago. What you should probably have done was to start a new thread called "My house Rules" or something similar, as that would have caused no confusion. Got it now.

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 Post subject: Re: Armour values from 40k to epic
PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:22 pm 
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Hi, here are my 2 cents :

- I play Netepic because it's the same game as my childhood's space marine 2nd edition which I love. I don't want a new system. I want the old one, maybe tweaked, but only a little.
- I have billions D6 dices (as a lot of gamers here I think), and changing the game to D8/D10/D12/D20 bother me.

I think the Netepic system is quite fine.
What I want as a gamer is the new toys (from forgeworld, from 40k, from the new lore) and I want them to be fine with the old ones (= Not OP, but fair, at a fair point price). At most, it will be maybe necesserary to change the old ones.
And I want to use the same system of army creation, but with these news toys.

Lysiar


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