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NE6 REVISION: IMPERIAL GUARD STAT DISCUSSION

 Post subject: NE6 REVISION: IMPERIAL GUARD STAT DISCUSSION
PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2017 7:41 pm 
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NE6 REVISION: IMPERIAL GUARD STAT REVIEW

Now that real life demands are receeding time to delve into the IG stat review!
As part of the review we will also discuss weapon ranges and their standardization.
After the review of elements already in NE GOLD we'll go into adding more elements that don't exist in those rules.

INFANTRY

The backbone of any army, more so for the IG. I think the movement rates are fine as they are as for weapons these are my thoughts.

1. Weapon Range
I think overall infantry weapon ranges are too large. This leads to a very "static" game where players just "turtle up" and go on first fire instead of maneuvering around.

It also detracts from the utility of vehicles and other heavier platforms since you can get the same range cheaply in infantry and hide in terrain as well.

I think infantry weapon ranges should be:
Heavy weapons 50cm
Infantry weapons (lasguns, etc) 35cm
Assault weapons (lasgun, etc) 25cm

Note that I am only commenting on the range, not the to hit or save modifiers. I think a weapons range is the same regardless whom wields it, but the accuracy of the shot and where to place it to do the most damage is dependent on the shooter. A bolt pistol in the hand of a guardsmen is not as effect as in the hands of a space marine, even if the range is the same.

These ranges make vehicle mounted version much more attractive since the ranges would be longer than man portable ones, with the appropriate downsides of a vehicle being less capable to hide.

2. To hit value

The overall to hit value of 5+ is fine. Its a good baseline. Some may be better (or worse), but that should be the average. It is the skill of the average guardsmen that determines to hit, not the weapon as it wound up in the original rules.

3. CAF value

I have never liked that a guardsmen CAF value is zero. They are trained soldiers. If they are zero, then less trained are a negative value which I would rather avoid.

I think they should be CAF +1, Assault would be +2. Troops like PDF and militia would be 0.
This has an impact on space marine values of course, but I have always thought those values were too low. Now with a uniformly applied costs formula, such increases can be given and relative cost will reflect that.

Another thing is I do not think heavy weapons elements should have their CAF penalized. While it is true some heavy weapons are unwieldy in close combat, some are very good (heavy bolter, flamers. etc), so they cancel each other out. With the points formula they will cost much more than basic infantry anyway.

4. Attack dice

The base value for infantry weapons is 1 die. With heavy weapons getting an additional one (2 dice total). Weapons that have a high rate of fire may get more if needed.

5. Save modifier

While the weapon itself may determine this, there are shooter related characteristics as well, so this can be tweaked to address such things. For example a ratling sniper has a lasgun but its skill may warrant a -1 save modifier.

6. Armor save

Always a interesting subject. They are pretty fragile, but I wonder if a save of 6 due to the flak jackets would be in order. It is the weakest of saves. But better than nothing.

Examples of what the guard would look like:
Tactical Guardsmen: Move 10cm, Save 6+, CAF +1, Weapon Lasgun, range 35cm, Attack dice 1, To hit 5+, TSM 0
Heavy Guardsmen: Move 10cm, Save 6+, CAF +1, heavy weapons, range 50cm, Attack dice 2, To hit 5+, TSM -1
Assault Guardsmen: Move 15cm, save 6+, CAF+2, weapon bolt pistols and CC weapon, range 25cm, attack dice 1, to hit 5+, TSM 0, jump packs

Once we can agree on some basics we can flesh them out further.

Discuss.

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: NE6 REVISION: IMPERIAL GUARD STAT DISCUSSION
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 1:12 am 
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Quite a while ago I came up with a list of all the IG units that are in the current rules published by Games Workshop, and assigned what I thought were reasonable stats for them. I think from memory there were just over 100 units and just over 100 weapons.

One of the things that I found invaluable was basing the weapons ranges and vehicle speeds on the current published work from Games Workshop. It makes the conversion much more transparent, and less susceptible to individual interpretation. Weapons, units, army composition and vehicles have changed vastly in the 40k universe since the various releases of Epic. So I'd say if one of the goals of this project is to update the units to what is currently in Games Workshop's narrative, then where possible use conversion of the existing 40k stats. I think I went with converting weapon range in inches from 40k to range in cm (rounded to the nearest 5) for epic. They should be relative to one another, and reasonably balanced by the GW game designers.

I've attached a pdf of what I came up with to help people see what I mean. I hope it might be of some use in your project.


Attachments:
IGv0.5.pdf [377.39 KiB]
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 Post subject: Re: NE6 REVISION: IMPERIAL GUARD STAT DISCUSSION
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 11:21 am 
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I like the PD for close combat weapons, i suggested that on the FB group. Alos gives me a great reference when i eventually start on the guard.

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 Post subject: Re: NE6 REVISION: IMPERIAL GUARD STAT DISCUSSION
PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 10:40 pm 
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Matty_C, that looks wonderful. I agree that basing weapon ranges & Move rates off of conversions from W40K would be the best way to go, for exactly the reasons you mentioned.

Any chance you could share how you valued those new Special Abilities? If you can, I'd be happy to add them onto the general formula.

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 Post subject: Re: NE6 REVISION: IMPERIAL GUARD STAT DISCUSSION
PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 3:26 am 
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Hi!

I'm making the file available on the group on facebook.

Great stuff!

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 Post subject: Re: NE6 REVISION: IMPERIAL GUARD STAT DISCUSSION
PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 3:35 am 
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Hi!

Matty_C could you do this for the marines? A comparison on how the two would look using this method would be terrific.

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 Post subject: Re: NE6 REVISION: IMPERIAL GUARD STAT DISCUSSION
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 4:28 am 
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Cheers all.
I'm out of action for a week, but might be able to do something with some marine units after that.
But from memory Mattman was doing something similar with marines around the time I was doing this.

@Magnus, I'll have to get back to you on those rules points mate.

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 Post subject: Re: NE6 REVISION: IMPERIAL GUARD STAT DISCUSSION
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 8:06 pm 
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Check.

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 Post subject: Re: NE6 REVISION: IMPERIAL GUARD STAT DISCUSSION
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 9:10 pm 
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Hi!

Thanks!

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 Post subject: Re: NE6 REVISION: IMPERIAL GUARD STAT DISCUSSION
PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 11:47 pm 
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Cool stuff Matt. Think I posted something a few years back which was all about weapon ranges and came to the conclusion that inches into approx cm is a good method.
Also like the flexible formations, something I was advocating a long time ago. Though I still am of the opinion that army building should just be about adding the points up without having to figure out or have to calculate any discount for core formations, but that is just me.


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 Post subject: Re: NE6 REVISION: IMPERIAL GUARD STAT DISCUSSION
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 4:06 am 
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Hi!

What version of 40k rules are used for conversions?

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 Post subject: Re: NE6 REVISION: IMPERIAL GUARD STAT DISCUSSION
PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 8:33 am 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
Any chance you could share how you valued those new Special Abilities? If you can, I'd be happy to add them onto the general formula.

I've checked the points values that I used Magnus and they need some work!
Assist Repair hasa points value of 15 (added as a special modifier at step F)
Bulky has a points value of 0
Make Way, Men! has a points value of 0
Munitorum Support has a points value of 0
Sensor Dome has a points value of 0.

Munitorum Support and Sensor Dome both have penalties associated with them, so one could argue that 0 points is acceptable. For the rest it just looks like I was being lazy, or forgetful, or (most likely) both!

primarch wrote:
Hi!

Matty_C could you do this for the marines? A comparison on how the two would look using this method would be terrific.

Primarch


Done. See attached. It is a bit rushed, and needs some work, but covers a reasonable mix of the current units.
Attachment:
File comment: SM Version 0.1
smv01.pdf [302.43 KiB]
Downloaded 62 times


Mattman wrote:
Cool stuff Matt. Think I posted something a few years back which was all about weapon ranges and came to the conclusion that inches into approx cm is a good method.
Also like the flexible formations, something I was advocating a long time ago. Though I still am of the opinion that army building should just be about adding the points up without having to figure out or have to calculate any discount for core formations, but that is just me.


Yeah One points value for each unit/vehicle would be a fair bit quicker at the army creation stage. At least for me anyway!

primarch wrote:
Hi!

What version of 40k rules are used for conversions?

Primarch

I used the current Imperial Guard (sorry Astra Militarum ::) ) Codex, along with the (still current I believe) Forgeworld Imperial Armour Second Edition Book. Probably the best Imperial Guard Vehicle book ever. :)

For the marines draft here I just used the current codex plus a couple of other units (i.e. Thunderhawk Gunship, Thunderhawk Transporter, and possibly something else I can't remember). I haven't tried to represent the current 40k formations in Epic format yet, but some of them might be interesting. Most are fairly well covered already by the formations.

I need to update the points formula in the spreadsheet I use too I suspect.

Anyway, I hope you guys find this useful.

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 Post subject: Re: NE6 REVISION: IMPERIAL GUARD STAT DISCUSSION
PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 5:51 pm 
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Hi!

Awesome Matty_C!

I can now proceed in using all this input to post the troop stats with all the ideas using these as reference.

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 Post subject: Re: NE6 REVISION: IMPERIAL GUARD STAT DISCUSSION
PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:12 pm 
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Any movement here Primarch?
I've got a little spare time available soon so might be able to help out.

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 Post subject: Re: NE6 REVISION: IMPERIAL GUARD STAT DISCUSSION
PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 11:08 pm 
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Matty_C wrote:
Any movement here Primarch?
I've got a little spare time available soon so might be able to help out.


Hi!

Real life has been kind of testy of late. :(

I'll try my best to get some work in on this in May.

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