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What Changes To Net Epic Could You Stomach?

 Post subject: Re: What Changes To Net Epic Could You Stomach?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 11:17 pm 
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Some radical infantry ideas I'm mulling over at the moment for some trial games.

Infantry lose their ranged small arms attacks and gain PD1. Perhaps with a range increase.
Every second base gets a heavy weapon shot.

There are about a hundred problems with it to work through, but just thought I'd let you chaps know what at least one lurker is considering doing. :)

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 Post subject: Re: What Changes To Net Epic Could You Stomach?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 11:43 pm 
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Matty_C wrote:
Some radical infantry ideas I'm mulling over at the moment for some trial games.

Infantry lose their ranged small arms attacks and gain PD1. Perhaps with a range increase.
Every second base gets a heavy weapon shot.

There are about a hundred problems with it to work through, but just thought I'd let you chaps know what at least one lurker is considering doing. :)


Hi!

I like radical change. ;)

Looking forward to it!

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: What Changes To Net Epic Could You Stomach?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2015 4:29 am 
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Having every other stand of a thing have a weapon would be tricky to put points to. What happens when there are five (or any other odd number of) stands? I don't think that is doable.

On the other hand, having a formation that had, for example, four stands of Tactical and two stands of Devastator would accomplish the same thing and it would be clear which stand is which. This would be radical departure from Epic basic formation building which never combines different things (of the same Model Type) in the same detachment. While it could be interesting, it's a bit too ... well, Platinum.

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 Post subject: Re: What Changes To Net Epic Could You Stomach?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2015 2:22 pm 
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Matty_C wrote:
Some radical infantry ideas I'm mulling over at the moment for some trial games.

Infantry lose their ranged small arms attacks and gain PD1. Perhaps with a range increase.
Every second base gets a heavy weapon shot.

There are about a hundred problems with it to work through, but just thought I'd let you chaps know what at least one lurker is considering doing. :)


Interesting thought, as Magnus says, the sort if thing I would ponder for platinum ;D . Mixed infantry is something worth mulling over, especially given I am proposing mixed vehicles in my army docs.
The PD would have to be more than 1, an infantry standard typically has 5 small arms, whereas the PD on a rhino for example is a single storm bolter.


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 Post subject: Re: What Changes To Net Epic Could You Stomach?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2015 3:28 pm 
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Mattman wrote:
Matty_C wrote:
Some radical infantry ideas I'm mulling over at the moment for some trial games.

Infantry lose their ranged small arms attacks and gain PD1. Perhaps with a range increase.
Every second base gets a heavy weapon shot.

There are about a hundred problems with it to work through, but just thought I'd let you chaps know what at least one lurker is considering doing. :)


Interesting thought, as Magnus says, the sort if thing I would ponder for platinum ;D . Mixed infantry is something worth mulling over, especially given I am proposing mixed vehicles in my army docs.
The PD would have to be more than 1, an infantry standard typically has 5 small arms, whereas the PD on a rhino for example is a single storm bolter.


Hi!

I find it interesting that the "spirit" of a lot of the proposed ideas are very "1st edition". Infantry with a PD value and some weapons that harm armored targets, while the wording is different is how 1st edition did things.

I find myself drifting back to that ruleset often for inspiration. ;D

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: What Changes To Net Epic Could You Stomach?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2015 7:46 pm 
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primarch wrote:
I find myself drifting back to that ruleset often for inspiration. ;D

Primarch

With good reason. 8)

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 Post subject: Re: What Changes To Net Epic Could You Stomach?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:53 pm 
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Dwarf Supreme wrote:
primarch wrote:
I find myself drifting back to that ruleset often for inspiration. ;D

Primarch

With good reason. 8)


Hi!

Indeed, with the passing of the years, I wonder if I should attempt a "revamp" of it. The problems with it are well known and I thin relatively simple to fix.

Perhaps I should revisit that. :)

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: What Changes To Net Epic Could You Stomach?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 1:19 am 
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We only ever played a handful of games of first before switching to second, but I remember really enjoying them.
Having played quite a few wargames since, I understand the merits of a streamlined system, but miss the detail. It's a fine balance. I think point defence is a simple mechanic that shouldn't slow things down too much.

As for the mechanics of half of the units having shots, I'm thinking that we will use the IG mechanic from EA, where you just tally up the number of squads in range and LoS, and divide by 2 rounding up, to give you the number of shots you can take. This is worked out every time you shoot, and is quick and simple. It is a fairly abstract way of doing things, but keeps the game moving without having to track subtly different infantry bases, which is fine at this scale IMO. As for point costing it, I'm still getting my head around the current system you guys have developed (which I love by the way), but am thinking just work out the HW shooting cost for all infantry bases, and divide it by two to apply to the card (detachment). Still getting my head around what you guys have done, but I think that would work.
Does the points value calculator exist in a spreadsheet or anything? If not I might be able to help out there ;)

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 Post subject: Re: What Changes To Net Epic Could You Stomach?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 1:35 am 
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Hi!

I don't think the points calculator exists in a spreadsheet form, but now you make me want to ask someone to make one. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: What Changes To Net Epic Could You Stomach?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 3:11 am 
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I do use a spreadsheet to calculate the values for things, but it is not (as yet) automated. I am pondering doing such a thing though. There is a (now somewhat outdated) copy of the spreadsheet attached to the thread about Marines in Platinum if you want to have a look at that. I may eventually post the version I am currently using, once it gets a bit more stable.
____________

Adding up the number of stands and dividing by ... er, no. Just no. Nope, no. Not going to happen. Not in any version of Epic I'll ever play anyway. Absolutely not. That is just too abstracted for this version of Epic. I like NetEpic because it is based on 2nd edition and NOT EA, and just no. This must not be added to the base system.

That said, if you want to make a variant where this is a thing, go ahead and do so. Just not in the basic core of NetEpic please.

It would also be impossible* to add this to the points formula, as that is specifically made to evaluate the worth of individual stands/models and a shared ability like this just breaks the premise.

* [Well, alright, I know it's not *actually* impossible, but I don't like it so I'm being stubborn.]

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 Post subject: Re: What Changes To Net Epic Could You Stomach?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 3:15 am 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
I do use a spreadsheet to calculate the values for things, but it is not (as yet) automated. I am pondering doing such a thing though. There is a (now somewhat outdated) copy of the spreadsheet attached to the thread about Marines in Platinum if you want to have a look at that. I may eventually post the version I am currently using, once it gets a bit more stable.
____________

Adding up the number of stands and dividing by ... er, no. Just no. Nope, no. Not going to happen. Not in any version of Epic I'll ever play anyway. Absolutely not. That is just too abstracted for this version of Epic. I like NetEpic because it is based on 2nd edition and NOT EA, and just no. This must not be added to the base system.

That said, if you want to make a variant where this is a thing, go ahead and do so. Just not in the basic core of NetEpic please.

It would also be impossible* to add this to the points formula, as that is specifically made to evaluate the worth of individual stands/models and a shared ability like this just breaks the premise.

* [Well, alright, I know it's not *actually* impossible, but I don't like it so I'm being stubborn.]


Hi!

I for one would love some automated spreadsheet version and work make it available on the Epicenter. I think it will be one of those must have net epic utilities. ;)

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: What Changes To Net Epic Could You Stomach?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 4:50 am 
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It would definitely help to have such a thing. I will almost certainly do that at some point, but there is really no point even beginning that until the formula is a bit more stable than it is now.

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 Post subject: Re: What Changes To Net Epic Could You Stomach?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 6:23 am 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
I do use a spreadsheet to calculate the values for things, but it is not (as yet) automated. I am pondering doing such a thing though. There is a (now somewhat outdated) copy of the spreadsheet attached to the thread about Marines in Platinum if you want to have a look at that. I may eventually post the version I am currently using, once it gets a bit more stable.


Ok. I might have a look at it next week when I have a bit of spare time. But if it's too early for the formula to be close to finalised then it may change a fair bit in the future. I will have a crack at it anyway, and at least that might help you guys out a little in the meantime. :)

MagnusIlluminus wrote:
Adding up the number of stands and dividing by ... er, no. Just no. Nope, no. Not going to happen. Not in any version of Epic I'll ever play anyway. Absolutely not. That is just too abstracted for this version of Epic. I like NetEpic because it is based on 2nd edition and NOT EA, and just no. This must not be added to the base system.

That said, if you want to make a variant where this is a thing, go ahead and do so. Just not in the basic core of NetEpic please.

It would also be impossible* to add this to the points formula, as that is specifically made to evaluate the worth of individual stands/models and a shared ability like this just breaks the premise.

* [Well, alright, I know it's not *actually* impossible, but I don't like it so I'm being stubborn.]


I might be missing the core of your argument here, but don't the infantry in sm2 (well tac marines) all have bolters which is arguably equally or even more abstract than what I'm proposing :p

Please note that this is just something we're talking about trying out, it's not a proposed core rules change.i just thought others might be interested in seeing how at least one group is thinking of mixing it up a bit :)
Having said that, if I've posted this in the wrong forum then please let me know. I am somewhat confused by the differences between gold, platinum and evolution, and am not sure I have the most up to date rules, lists etc. :)

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 Post subject: Re: What Changes To Net Epic Could You Stomach?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 2:04 pm 
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Gold is the most recent, stable release version of NetEpic. It is the baseline from which all variants begin.

Platinum and Evolution are variant systems that diverge in various ways from Gold, but retain all rules not explicitly changed. Technically, the Points Formula is also a variant system.

If you want to make a variant system that does what you proposes, go right ahead and do so, I'm all in favor of variant systems even if I think I'll never use them.

However, the purpose of this thread (as stated in the title thereof) is discussing what changes to the core rules for Gold could be tolerated. Obviously, you would be fine if Gold were changed in that way, but I would not. Thus your idea does, at least partially, belong in this thread.

The level of abstraction that 2nd edition Epic (and thus NetEpic) deals with is, IMO, fairly minor, or at least it was fairly minor compared to 2nd or 3rd edition W40K which is what the 2nd edition Epic stats were based on at the time. I'm also accustomed to this level. Aside from doing things the 1st Edition Epic way (listing every weapon carried by a stand, etc) it is a 'necessary evil' for game balance. IMO going any further into abstraction is unnecessary and would reduce or eliminate the need for many of the troop types currently in the game.

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 Post subject: Re: What Changes To Net Epic Could You Stomach?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 10:23 pm 
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I have considered a variant that mashes a version of the streamlined firepower rules of EA with NetEpic, maybe one day I will make enough notes to try it out.


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