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Potential Heretical Thoughts on Titan Hit Charts!

 Post subject: Re: Potential Heretical Thoughts on Titan Hit Charts!
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 4:43 am 
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As much as I like the fluff reasons behind having certain factions being better shots than others, mechanically (and for assigning costs) it would be much simpler to base that off of the To Hit value of the weapon being used, as was suggested earlier in this thread. It would also be more fair.

Alternatively, new Special Weapon Abilities could be created and assigned to certain weapons that are designed to be good at killing Titans.

Actually, even without creating any new abilities, we could just say that any weapon with the Penetrating ability may choose to adjust their roll on the chart by a maximum number of results equal to their Penetrating value.

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 Post subject: Re: Potential Heretical Thoughts on Titan Hit Charts!
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 8:01 am 
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I don't understand the rationale of having the miss on the table. If I roll a hit it should hit IMO, otherwise it is harder to hit a titan than a warbuggy, which doesn't seem right to me.
But I like the table location table rather than the templates.

Roll 2d6 have option to modify roll by how much you hit by, "6-your to hit stat" or similar might be fun to trial too. 2d6 minus what you need to hit, and keep head and legs up at the high end of the table.
Just a thought.

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 Post subject: Re: Potential Heretical Thoughts on Titan Hit Charts!
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 10:30 am 
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The reason for having a "miss" result on the table is because with the Hit Location templates you have to roll deviation dice so there is a chance that your hit will not hit the location you aimed at, and even a chance of missing the Titan entirely. In other words, I'm not adding anything new, just simulating how it currently works.

However, your concern of a hit actually missing is a long-standing issue with how Titans work in 2nd edition Epic (and thus NetEpic). I think of it as being a balance issue against the possibility of rolling a 6 on many location damage charts instantly destroying the Titan, and if the Reactor is involved there is a good chance of destroying everything in the vicinity as well. If we remove that entirely then we should add in some method to simulate damage gradually accumulating on a given location and there not being a chance of the first hit the Titan takes in a game destroying it utterly. While some people here would like to do that anyway, others have expressed the concern of it possibly requiring too much record-keeping during the game for their preferences. Thus it keeps right on not happening.

Another way to think of it is not that you missed, but that you did not hit a critical system. You still hit the Titan, but in a spot that just does not matter.

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 Post subject: Re: Potential Heretical Thoughts on Titan Hit Charts!
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 12:21 pm 
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If given a damage cap the hull hits could count as 1 damage hits on location could also cause 1 damage with the added effect of rolling on the area specific damage chart. You could then wear away a Titan with numerous shots or deliver the knock out blow with one.


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 Post subject: Re: Potential Heretical Thoughts on Titan Hit Charts!
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 4:06 pm 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
As much as I like the fluff reasons behind having certain factions being better shots than others, mechanically (and for assigning costs) it would be much simpler to base that off of the To Hit value of the weapon being used, as was suggested earlier in this thread. It would also be more fair.

Alternatively, new Special Weapon Abilities could be created and assigned to certain weapons that are designed to be good at killing Titans.

Actually, even without creating any new abilities, we could just say that any weapon with the Penetrating ability may choose to adjust their roll on the chart by a maximum number of results equal to their Penetrating value.


Hi!

Idea would work as well. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Potential Heretical Thoughts on Titan Hit Charts!
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 4:09 pm 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
The reason for having a "miss" result on the table is because with the Hit Location templates you have to roll deviation dice so there is a chance that your hit will not hit the location you aimed at, and even a chance of missing the Titan entirely. In other words, I'm not adding anything new, just simulating how it currently works.

However, your concern of a hit actually missing is a long-standing issue with how Titans work in 2nd edition Epic (and thus NetEpic). I think of it as being a balance issue against the possibility of rolling a 6 on many location damage charts instantly destroying the Titan, and if the Reactor is involved there is a good chance of destroying everything in the vicinity as well. If we remove that entirely then we should add in some method to simulate damage gradually accumulating on a given location and there not being a chance of the first hit the Titan takes in a game destroying it utterly. While some people here would like to do that anyway, others have expressed the concern of it possibly requiring too much record-keeping during the game for their preferences. Thus it keeps right on not happening.

Another way to think of it is not that you missed, but that you did not hit a critical system. You still hit the Titan, but in a spot that just does not matter.


Hi!

This is the correct interpetation as the "miss" on the hit location template is equivalent to the 1st edition "superficial hit" which did not cause damage. I view the current mechanic as a simulation of the previous one.

Or perhaps goigng "back" to that mechanic is the solution, other than "hits that miss".

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 Post subject: Re: Potential Heretical Thoughts on Titan Hit Charts!
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 8:07 pm 
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I suppose the phrasing could be changed from "Miss" to "Superficial damage" to help change the perception of actually missing on a hit. I think I'll do that in future versions. Of course, doing that means someone has to add a note to the Titan charts that explains what that term means.

On that note, I noticed the other day that the Titan Reactor Damage chart does not describe what the results for it's entries actually do. For example, the "Reactor Explodes!" result should list what radius the explosion covers, what the to-hit value is (or a BP rating) and the TSM. I was not able to find that data in the general section about Titans either. IMO the other two entries should have some effect as well. I'd suggest:

Damaged = +1 to all future rolls on the Reactor chart.

Crippled = Reactor looses some ability to safely produce some plasma. Move is reduced by 5cm, CAF is halved, and may not fire standard Plasma based weapons until Repaired to Damaged level or better.

Explodes! = The Reactor explodes spectacularly. Place the 12cm Barrage Template centered on the center of the Titan. All models at least half under the template are affected as by a Barrage with BP equal to the total cost of this Titan divided by 100. TSM is equal to half BP value, rounded up. Once this is completed remove the Titan from the battlefield and replace with a crater (counts as Barricades).

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 Post subject: Re: Potential Heretical Thoughts on Titan Hit Charts!
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 8:14 pm 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
I suppose the phrasing could be changed from "Miss" to "Superficial damage" to help change the perception of actually missing on a hit. I think I'll do that in future versions. Of course, doing that means someone has to add a note to the Titan charts that explains what that term means.

On that note, I noticed the other day that the Titan Reactor Damage chart does not describe what the results for it's entries actually do. For example, the "Reactor Explodes!" result should list what radius the explosion covers, what the to-hit value is (or a BP rating) and the TSM. I was not able to find that data in the general section about Titans either. IMO the other two entries should have some effect as well. I'd suggest:

Damaged = +1 to all future rolls on the Reactor chart.

Crippled = Reactor looses some ability to safely produce some plasma. Move is reduced by 5cm, CAF is halved, and may not fire standard Plasma based weapons until Repaired to Damaged level or better.

Explodes! = The Reactor explodes spectacularly. Place the 12cm Barrage Template centered on the center of the Titan. All models at least half under the template are affected as by a Barrage with BP equal to the total cost of this Titan divided by 100. TSM is equal to half BP value, rounded up. Once this is completed remove the Titan from the battlefield and replace with a crater (counts as Barricades).


Hi!

Agreed. Some of the entries are incomplete or at least lack more detail. I like you suggestions.

I wonder if they could be included in a potential revision. ;)

Also, is using a single d6 for rolling on damage table still appropriate? I always thought the tables should be 2d6, in particular gargant damage tables. It seems that sometimes bonuses for penetration are so high that I see no point in rolling. Granted I would prefer a d10, but people are way too attached to d6's.

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 Post subject: Re: Potential Heretical Thoughts on Titan Hit Charts!
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 10:48 pm 
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Superficial Damage is much clearer than Miss based on the logic you have given.
Thanks for clarifying :)

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 Post subject: Re: Potential Heretical Thoughts on Titan Hit Charts!
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 11:37 pm 
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I just found where the results for Reactor damage are described. For whatever reason, it is in the Core Rules on page 46 in the general rules for Titans. Personally, I'd prefer to have at least brief descriptions of the effects on each Titan's hit location template rather than have to look in another book / file.

It also turns out that the results in the rules are harsher than my suggestions above. Perhaps this will come under review for the Revision to see if people think the existing results are too strong.

The charts should remain 1d6 based, as the Penetrating values are based on that. However, this could also be addressed during the revision to see if people favor changing this system. I'd think that 2d6 is a bad idea as the probability is a curve rather than flat and applying modifiers to that is tricky to balance. However, the charts could be extended beyond 6 to allow for modifiers. For example, "Reactor Explodes!" could be a result of 7+ with the other two being 1-3 and 4-6 respectively. There could also be a result, or two, added to the low end of the chart with results that do not automatically shut down the Reactor. For Example:

Reactor Damage chart:
1-2 Superficial damage: No significant area hit, but add +1 to all future rolls on the Reactor Damage chart (stacks with the normal bonus, thus all future rolls on this chart are at +2)
3-4 Minor Damage: Reactor looses some ability to safely produce some plasma. Move is reduced by 5cm, CAF is halved, and may not fire standard Plasma based weapons until Repaired to Superficial level or better.
5-6 Damaged: as per Damaged in the Core Rules (IE Reactor shuts down, may not move or fire weapons, shields go down)
7-8 Crippled: as per Crippled in the Core Rules (IE, as Damaged but may Explode if not repaired)
9+ Explodes!: as per Core Rules

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 Post subject: Re: Potential Heretical Thoughts on Titan Hit Charts!
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 11:50 pm 
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Just beat me to the reactor damage results.

Why do we need a miss result? The whole reason I put this idea forward was so that you couldn't miss a titan after a successful hit. Given these things are the biggest things on the battlefield, why would we be more likely to miss them than a stand of gretchin, hell maybe you should get a bonus to hit them since they are so big. A hit should be a hit.

The penetrating rule is about doing additional damage, why would that translate into allowing you to be more accurate? Now a titan equipped with a Fire Control Centre, maybe.

Maybe the head shouldn't be right at one extreme, but I wouldn't want it to be to likely to be hit. Yes it is in the middle of the titan, but proportionally it takes up a whole lot less area compared to the carapace, legs and weapons, so unless specifically targeted, you should be very lucky to hit it. As I mentioned, this system is very much like what has been successfully used in Battletech for 30+ years, so they must be happy with it.

I can understand the thought behind using a d6 for scout titans, but it seems odd that a scout titan would have an equal chance of being hit in any location but you move up a class and you are now playing with the probabilities across 2d6 and areas being less or more likely to be hit. Maybe this is where we need poly dice, d6 for scouts, d8 for battle, d10 for emporer. This would be the sort of thing I would except using poly dice since you only need 1 or 2.

I have been having other thoughts regarding titans, such as damage capacity values for locations, so a titan wouldn't die to a single lascannon shot to the reactor. When I get some time I might try and write something down.

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 Post subject: Re: Potential Heretical Thoughts on Titan Hit Charts!
PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 12:36 am 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
I just found where the results for Reactor damage are described. For whatever reason, it is in the Core Rules on page 46 in the general rules for Titans. Personally, I'd prefer to have at least brief descriptions of the effects on each Titan's hit location template rather than have to look in another book / file.

It also turns out that the results in the rules are harsher than my suggestions above. Perhaps this will come under review for the Revision to see if people think the existing results are too strong.

The charts should remain 1d6 based, as the Penetrating values are based on that. However, this could also be addressed during the revision to see if people favor changing this system. I'd think that 2d6 is a bad idea as the probability is a curve rather than flat and applying modifiers to that is tricky to balance. However, the charts could be extended beyond 6 to allow for modifiers. For example, "Reactor Explodes!" could be a result of 7+ with the other two being 1-3 and 4-6 respectively. There could also be a result, or two, added to the low end of the chart with results that do not automatically shut down the Reactor. For Example:

Reactor Damage chart:
1-2 Superficial damage: No significant area hit, but add +1 to all future rolls on the Reactor Damage chart (stacks with the normal bonus, thus all future rolls on this chart are at +2)
3-4 Minor Damage: Reactor looses some ability to safely produce some plasma. Move is reduced by 5cm, CAF is halved, and may not fire standard Plasma based weapons until Repaired to Superficial level or better.
5-6 Damaged: as per Damaged in the Core Rules (IE Reactor shuts down, may not move or fire weapons, shields go down)
7-8 Crippled: as per Crippled in the Core Rules (IE, as Damaged but may Explode if not repaired)
9+ Explodes!: as per Core Rules


Hi!

I REALLY LOVE the idea of values beyond 6+ for real bad results reachable only by weapons with penetration.

Consider that one stolen for mentioning under the revision. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Potential Heretical Thoughts on Titan Hit Charts!
PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 3:47 am 
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As Primarch and I described (in different ways) it is not so much that the shot actually misses the Titan entirely, it is more that it hits a non-critical location, one that is not likely to cause any problem for the operation of the Titan during battle. This was specified more clearly in 1st edition and 2nd edition used the deviation dice to simulate both that and not necessarily hitting the exact spot you wanted.

I will admit that "missing" when the To-Hit roll says you hit seems silly, but it is a part of the game and a balancing factor for Titans that can die utterly to one lucky shot. Perhaps we don't "need" the 'Miss/Superficial Damage' result, but if we get rid of it then it should be replaced by something. Extending the Damage charts could do it, as could giving locations the equivalent of Wounds (as you kinda mentioned).

Agreed, Penetrating is (at the moment) only about doing more damage. That was not really a good idea I guess. Thus we should either create a new Ability for it and assign it to weapons & models as appropriate, or tie the accuracy into the To-Hit value. The latter would be a easiest.

Agreed, a Head location should not be easy to hit. On a 2d6 chart, I'd probably put it at either number 4 or 5 (not both). Not right in the center, but not at an outer edge either. Yes, it doesn't take up a lot of area, but it is a popular target as a lucky shot can take out the Titan. Without running the math, perhaps:

2 - 3 Carapace Weapon (determine randomly if more than one)
_ 4 _ Head
_ 5 _ Arm Weapon (determine randomly)
6 - 8 Leg
_ 9 _ Carapace Weapon (determine randomly if more than one)
10-12 Arm Weapon (determine randomly)

This layout makes hitting an Arm Weapon slightly more likely than a Carapace Weapon, which is fine as they have more hit locations. Replace Head with Reactor for the Rear arc. The chart for side would have to vary by Titan design, as there are differences between a Reaver and Warlord.

Sorry, I've never played Battletech, so I have no experience with that. Thus that argument holds no importance to me. As far as time is concerned, 2nd Edition Epic has been doing it the way NetEpic Gold does it for nearly as long. Or vice-verse.

I suppose a Scout Titan could use 2d4 (or even 2d3, which would have an advantage as a d6 can easily be used as a d3) if you are concerned about the flat probability of a 1d6. I'm not very worried about it because a Scout Titan has very few hit locations at all, usually right around 6 or so.

Even if we did go with 1dX for each class, the Mega-class would have to use a d12 at least, possibly a d20, as the Imperator just has lots and lots of possible hit locations. I'm not even sure that 3d6 does it justice. It may need a 1d100 chart.

Actually, adding a rule that gives all non-Titans a +1 to hit any model of Battle Titan size or bigger could be interesting. It could possibly be extended to all Titans, and for that matter, could be against any model with a hit location template, as it is hard to miss something that is bigger than a building. On the other hand, if we did that, then we'd just about have to extend that to actual Buildings as well. Then it's just a short jump to to-hit modifiers based on Pinning Class and while *I* would like that level of detail, I know that many people would not. [Something like: all models gain a +1 to hit against a model for each step above the shooter's Pinning Class that the target is. For example, a Marine stand would gain a +3 to hit when shooting at a Super Heavy, but Titans would gain nothing vs anyone as nothing is a higher Pinning class than them.] (Yes, I know the phrasing on that is terrible and I don't care since it is not going to happen.)

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 Post subject: Re: Potential Heretical Thoughts on Titan Hit Charts!
PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 9:36 am 
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Just to throw some stats into the mx...
Chances to hit a location based on the hit location template when shooting at the front of a warlord:
Each carapace weapon 8%
Head 8%
Reactor 8%
Each arm 17%
Each leg 17%
Plus rounding.

Replicating that with a 2-12 is tricky.
2-3. Reactor. 8%
4-5. Left leg. 1-3=upper, 4-6=lower.
6. Left arm. 13%
7. Carapace weapon. 1-3=left. 4-6= right. 17%
8. Right arm. 13%
9-10. Right leg. 1-3=upper, 4-6=lower. 19%
11-12. Head. 8%

So the stats aren't quite the same. With some more careful thought you could get it pretty close.

Also good results for a 2 and a 12 :)

Food for thought perhaps.

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 Post subject: Re: Potential Heretical Thoughts on Titan Hit Charts!
PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 9:00 pm 
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Hi!

Reactor from the from would be zero, as it was removed and replaced by a leg location as of the last errata.

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