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Potential Heretical Thoughts on Titan Hit Charts!

 Post subject: Re: Potential Heretical Thoughts on Titan Hit Charts!
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2015 1:53 pm 
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Definitely an interesting may of doing things Squiggle.

@ Bissler
The chart I was talking about was the one in the main rule book P38.


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 Post subject: Re: Potential Heretical Thoughts on Titan Hit Charts!
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2015 2:36 pm 
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My misunderstanding. It's the damage point system I've missed. I have to say that I think the damage works fine for Superheavies. After playing it a few times you remember the results you are rolling for.

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 Post subject: Re: Potential Heretical Thoughts on Titan Hit Charts!
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2015 2:47 pm 
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Cool. You want this thread, which started out talking about the Macharius:

http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=159&t=28855

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 Post subject: Re: Potential Heretical Thoughts on Titan Hit Charts!
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2015 3:51 pm 
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Cheers Matt! :)

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 Post subject: Re: Potential Heretical Thoughts on Titan Hit Charts!
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2015 6:43 pm 
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Mattman wrote:
A 2d6 system was my first thoughts, something like this for a Warlord Titan:

Attachment:
Warlord Titan Hit Chart.jpg


It is very similar to what they use in Battletech and I can see Titans being more resilient because of it.

I wouldn't like to see specific armies get an advantage for targeting titans. How good a unit shoots is already included in their stats.
I did think about an option to aim or target if you are under First Fire Orders. Something like, you shot at a -2 to hit, but you may choose the location you hit on the titan. Obviously that makes weapons with low "To Hit" numbers quite good, but all the "To Hit" numbers are being reviewed under Platinum and I will be getting rid of lots of the 2+/3+ numbers. But some armies like Eldar which are likely to have a few more better to hit rolls than others might get a bit more out of it. Plus with it being a game wide rule, it doesn't have to be costed for an army.

Definitely wouldn't want to see different levels of criticals and damage on vehicles. In fact if we implement a Damage Point system as being discussed in another topic, we could most probably just rid of the Super Heavy Critical Table.

Matt


Hi!

This would be a great thing to implement. I agree the to hit abstracts targeting so nothing further needs to be done.

More importantly I don't think the point formula changes by using this, since you didn't change an stats, just how hits are allocated.

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 Post subject: Re: Potential Heretical Thoughts on Titan Hit Charts!
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2015 6:45 pm 
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The Bissler wrote:
I like this very much Mattman and you're right the resilience of Titans would be greatly imrpoved by the fact that hitting the head or reactor would be difficult on a Warlord because you need to roll 2 or 12 on 2D6 which is fairly unlikely. It also means the removal of the reactors on the front of WRlords would be less necessary.

When designing tables for Warhounds in particular but also for Reavers, I'd like to see a higher chance of hitting the head, this reflecting that they are lower points costs and therefore easier to take down.

The option to fire at Titans with a -2 but resulting hits mean that the player can pick which location is a great idea also and means that we are not unfairly penalising certain armies as you point out.

I must have a hunt for your Suoerheavy critical table, I missed that one.

Great work!


I like the idea of manipulating the table to increase or decrease odds of hitting certain location according to the hull type. That would simulate the vulnerability of the types well.

I'd still keep the reactor out of the front though for warlords, the new points formula makes titans expensive, so let them be worth the points.

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 Post subject: Re: Potential Heretical Thoughts on Titan Hit Charts!
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2015 7:35 pm 
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I thought of a way to make the existing system (using the Deviation dice) more realistic and would take a weapon's accuracy into account. Change the use of the Scatter Dice from being automatic to being conditional depending on how well the player rolls. More specifically, if you roll exactly the number needed for that weapon to hit (or one higher), you would roll both dice (U/D & L/R). If you roll two points higher, you may select one of the dice to not roll before the roll is made. If you roll four points higher, you do not roll for deviation.

In other words, any weapon that hits on 5+ or 6+ and hits a model with a Hit Location Chart will always roll both Deviation dice. Any Weapon that hits on 4+ might only need to roll one Deviation die if the player rolls a 6. A weapon with 3+ would roll only one Deviation die on a 5 or 6. A weapon with 2+ would only roll one Deviation die on a 4 or 5, and no Deviation dice at all on a 6.

This would allow for greater flexibility for the more accurate weapons to target Weapon, Wing, or other 'outer ring' locations with a greater odds of hitting the intended target location.
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That said, the ideas posed above by others do sound interesting. Especially the 2d6 chart by Mattman. That looks great. I agree with Primarch that it would not directly affect the Points Formula currently, though perhaps it should. As it is, I'm not entirely satisfied with the method currently in use for costing Hit Location values, so I will be looking into revising that at some point. Hmm, the odds of hitting a particular area could affect the cost. I'll have to stew on that for a while.

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 Post subject: Re: Potential Heretical Thoughts on Titan Hit Charts!
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2015 7:55 pm 
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I like the theory behind your idea Magnus but I think this would only disproportionately favour the Eldar. I can't think of other armies it would really benefit apart from the odd unit. :-\

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 Post subject: Re: Potential Heretical Thoughts on Titan Hit Charts!
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2015 8:28 pm 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
I thought of a way to make the existing system (using the Deviation dice) more realistic and would take a weapon's accuracy into account. Change the use of the Scatter Dice from being automatic to being conditional depending on how well the player rolls. More specifically, if you roll exactly the number needed for that weapon to hit (or one higher), you would roll both dice (U/D & L/R). If you roll two points higher, you may select one of the dice to not roll before the roll is made. If you roll four points higher, you do not roll for deviation.

In other words, any weapon that hits on 5+ or 6+ and hits a model with a Hit Location Chart will always roll both Deviation dice. Any Weapon that hits on 4+ might only need to roll one Deviation die if the player rolls a 6. A weapon with 3+ would roll only one Deviation die on a 5 or 6. A weapon with 2+ would only roll one Deviation die on a 4 or 5, and no Deviation dice at all on a 6.

This would allow for greater flexibility for the more accurate weapons to target Weapon, Wing, or other 'outer ring' locations with a greater odds of hitting the intended target location.
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That said, the ideas posed above by others do sound interesting. Especially the 2d6 chart by Mattman. That looks great. I agree with Primarch that it would not directly affect the Points Formula currently, though perhaps it should. As it is, I'm not entirely satisfied with the method currently in use for costing Hit Location values, so I will be looking into revising that at some point. Hmm, the odds of hitting a particular area could affect the cost. I'll have to stew on that for a while.


Hi!

This is a very good idea. If the hit location are finally decided upon this would be a good thing to apply to it.

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Potential Heretical Thoughts on Titan Hit Charts!
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2015 8:31 pm 
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The Bissler wrote:
I like the theory behind your idea Magnus but I think this would only disproportionately favour the Eldar. I can't think of other armies it would really benefit apart from the odd unit. :-\


Hi!

It is supposed to benefit some more than other Bissler. Eldar stats are better in that regard. Also remember to put it into the context of the newer points formula, which increase eldar element cost, in some case a large change to the standard values. The cost would be validated in such a system, the same way as lower IG and ork costs would be validated. In essence "you get what you pay for". ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Potential Heretical Thoughts on Titan Hit Charts!
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2015 10:04 pm 
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The Bissler wrote:
If you go down the 2D6 route, you could give forces different accuracy ratings by which they can modify the 2D6 result to get a more favourable location:

Eldar could modify results by up to three
Space Marines & Chaos by two
IG & Squats by one
Orks not at all.

Note that results could be modified up or down depending on their preference.


I'd suggest basing the modifier on the THR rather than having the same value for each faction. So you get a modifier based on how many points below 5+ the THR was. For example:

THR = 6+ => no modifier
THR = 5+ => no modifier
THR = 4+ => 1
THR = 3+ => 2
THR = 2+ => 3

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 Post subject: Re: Potential Heretical Thoughts on Titan Hit Charts!
PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2015 8:20 pm 
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primarch wrote:
The Bissler wrote:
I like the theory behind your idea Magnus but I think this would only disproportionately favour the Eldar. I can't think of other armies it would really benefit apart from the odd unit. :-\


Hi!

It is supposed to benefit some more than other Bissler. Eldar stats are better in that regard. Also remember to put it into the context of the newer points formula, which increase eldar element cost, in some case a large change to the standard values. The cost would be validated in such a system, the same way as lower IG and ork costs would be validated. In essence "you get what you pay for". ;)

Primarch


Quite correct. Some armies have more accurate weapons than others do. [Primarch Magnus springs to mind, he'd really become a Titan killer...] Still, the initial interval could always be adjusted. For example, instead of the first Deviation die being lost at two points higher (needs 4+ and roll of 6) it could only require one higher (needs 4+ and rolls 5 or 6). I'd still recommend having an interval of two points to lose the second Deviation die.

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 Post subject: Re: Potential Heretical Thoughts on Titan Hit Charts!
PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 7:26 am 
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Mattman wrote:
A 2d6 system was my first thoughts, something like this for a Warlord Titan:

Attachment:
Warlord Titan Hit Chart.jpg


It is very similar to what they use in Battletech and I can see Titans being more resilient because of it.

I wouldn't like to see specific armies get an advantage for targeting titans. How good a unit shoots is already included in their stats.
I did think about an option to aim or target if you are under First Fire Orders. Something like, you shot at a -2 to hit, but you may choose the location you hit on the titan. Obviously that makes weapons with low "To Hit" numbers quite good, but all the "To Hit" numbers are being reviewed under Platinum and I will be getting rid of lots of the 2+/3+ numbers. But some armies like Eldar which are likely to have a few more better to hit rolls than others might get a bit more out of it. Plus with it being a game wide rule, it doesn't have to be costed for an army.

Definitely wouldn't want to see different levels of criticals and damage on vehicles. In fact if we implement a Damage Point system as being discussed in another topic, we could most probably just rid of the Super Heavy Critical Table.

Matt

I like this option. I haven't checked the table in detail, but if the chances of hitting location are roughly proportional to the old damage tables, then it solves the problem of hits missing, but keeping the hits locations in proportion.
If a unit forgoes it's +1 to hit modifier on ff orders in order to choose a hit location, that feels about right to me. Accurate armies will shoot you in the head a lot. Which seems right. ;)
Nice work all. Keep it up.

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 Post subject: Re: Potential Heretical Thoughts on Titan Hit Charts!
PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 5:22 pm 
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I just had another thought in relation to the 2d6 chart idea to determine what location is hit. Vary the number of dice used by class of titan. For example, Scout Titans would have a 1d6 chart for each facing, Battle Titans would have a 2d6 chart, and Mega Titans would have a 3d6 chart. This would automatically make hitting a particular location easier on a Scout Titan as there are fewer locations that can be hit. Same, but opposite, with Mega-class Titans that have more locations so each should have lower odds of being hit.

The chart that Mattman posted a while back is good, but not great, as the Head location should be closer to the center of the chart. This is because it is center mass (along with a Legs location) and thus will be targeted more than other locations and thus would logically be hit more than a 2d6 result of 2 would indicate. I'll run some numbers and see if I can come up with decent Battle & Mega Titan charts. A Warhound Scout Titan chart could look like this:

Warhound:
__ Front _________ Back ___________ Side
1 - Head _______ 1 - Reactor ____ 1 - Weapon
2 - R.Weapon ___ 2 - L.Weapon ___ 2 - Weapon
3 - L.Weapon ___ 3 - R.Weapon ___ 3 - Leg
4 - R.Leg ______ 4 - L.Leg ______ 4 - Leg
5 - L.Leg ______ 5 - R.Leg ______ 5 - Miss
6 - Miss _______ 6 - Miss _______ 6 - Miss

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 Post subject: Re: Potential Heretical Thoughts on Titan Hit Charts!
PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 10:11 pm 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
I just had another thought in relation to the 2d6 chart idea to determine what location is hit. Vary the number of dice used by class of titan. For example, Scout Titans would have a 1d6 chart for each facing, Battle Titans would have a 2d6 chart, and Mega Titans would have a 3d6 chart. This would automatically make hitting a particular location easier on a Scout Titan as there are fewer locations that can be hit. Same, but opposite, with Mega-class Titans that have more locations so each should have lower odds of being hit.

The chart that Mattman posted a while back is good, but not great, as the Head location should be closer to the center of the chart. This is because it is center mass (along with a Legs location) and thus will be targeted more than other locations and thus would logically be hit more than a 2d6 result of 2 would indicate. I'll run some numbers and see if I can come up with decent Battle & Mega Titan charts. A Warhound Scout Titan chart could look like this:

Warhound:
__ Front _________ Back ___________ Side
1 - Head _______ 1 - Reactor ____ 1 - Weapon
2 - R.Weapon ___ 2 - L.Weapon ___ 2 - Weapon
3 - L.Weapon ___ 3 - R.Weapon ___ 3 - Leg
4 - R.Leg ______ 4 - L.Leg ______ 4 - Leg
5 - L.Leg ______ 5 - R.Leg ______ 5 - Miss
6 - Miss _______ 6 - Miss _______ 6 - Miss


Hi!

This is pretty neat!

You could also use this to implement any "accuracy" certain races would have. Like Eldar could roll 2 dice and pick the best. Orks roll two and pick the worst.

I see many additional potential uses to an idea like this. :)

Primarch

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