Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 46 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next

Potential Heretical Thoughts on Titan Hit Charts!

 Post subject: Potential Heretical Thoughts on Titan Hit Charts!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 7:47 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 12:16 am
Posts: 1003
So I was wondering if maybe the titan hit charts as we know them should be done away with and maybe moving to a different style of hit chart?
We have all come a cropper of having our shots scatter off the template even after successfully hitting the target, and how many people avoid aiming at weapons or wings because of that risk.

I have a few thoughts which I will post in due course, but what do other people think?

Matt


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Potential Heretical Thoughts on Titan Hit Charts!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 8:19 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am
Posts: 27034
Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA
Mattman wrote:
So I was wondering if maybe the titan hit charts as we know them should be done away with and maybe moving to a different style of hit chart?
We have all come a cropper of having our shots scatter off the template even after successfully hitting the target, and how many people avoid aiming at weapons or wings because of that risk.

I have a few thoughts which I will post in due course, but what do other people think?

Matt


Hi!

It is not heretical. That is how first edition did it and that is why titans had such durability under those rules.

Doing it the "AT way" opens up a slew of interesting possibilities, not to mention some streamlining in one aspect could open up adding some better detail elsewhere.

Hit location templates were one of those things, that I "Accepted" during the transition to 2nd edition. I am aware however that they don't work as intended since its all too easy to go for high yield areas on it with little penalty.

Under AT you had to "wear a titan down" before a killing blow. Such lucky one shot hits were extrememly rare.

I for one would not mind going back to that system.

Primarch

_________________
Primarch


The Primarchload
Magnetized Titans Tutorial
Net Epic Gold
Heresy Rules


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Potential Heretical Thoughts on Titan Hit Charts!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 10:41 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2012 5:34 pm
Posts: 3111
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
I've been thinking long and hard about this of late, particularly in relation to the likes of Warhounds and Revenants. They are so small that almost any deviation will result in your "hit" missing!

I'm sorry to say Primarch than I'm not overly keen on going back to 1st edition style damage but only because as I remember it this required book-keeping. This was fine for AT but cumbersome once the game expanded. It was another reason I found Imperators so loathsome.

My intended "fix" would be to be that the hit has to land on something, therefore would hit the location closest to where the missing hit ended up.

I hadn't made up my mind about how extensively I intended to roll this out, but definitely for barrage hits as it doesn't make much sense to me that those could miss.

_________________
Proud to be described by CyberShadow as Tactical Command's "...biggest threat in recent times..."!

Clickable links for Epic hijinks:
Epic 40K Players Page on Facebook
Net Epic Evolution Rules
Net Epic War! Campaign Rules


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Potential Heretical Thoughts on Titan Hit Charts!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 11:29 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am
Posts: 27034
Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA
The Bissler wrote:
I've been thinking long and hard about this of late, particularly in relation to the likes of Warhounds and Revenants. They are so small that almost any deviation will result in your "hit" missing!

I'm sorry to say Primarch than I'm not overly keen on going back to 1st edition style damage but only because as I remember it this required book-keeping. This was fine for AT but cumbersome once the game expanded. It was another reason I found Imperators so loathsome.

My intended "fix" would be to be that the hit has to land on something, therefore would hit the location closest to where the missing hit ended up.

I hadn't made up my mind about how extensively I intended to roll this out, but definitely for barrage hits as it doesn't make much sense to me that those could miss.


Hi!

Problem with that approach is "why roll at all" if your going to get the closest one any way.

I think the bookkeeping your thinking of in AT were the titan builds and honors. The resolution system for a hit IS quicker than SM2. Hit, armor save, roll on table to see where hit lands, damage.

The clumsiness of AT is the integration with SM1, the resolution of titan shooting combat was actually fairly quick.

Primarch

_________________
Primarch


The Primarchload
Magnetized Titans Tutorial
Net Epic Gold
Heresy Rules


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Potential Heretical Thoughts on Titan Hit Charts!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 11:46 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2012 5:34 pm
Posts: 3111
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
I remember something about superficial and critical damage...it's been too long for me to remember now. I look forward to solutions to this problem in any event! ;)

_________________
Proud to be described by CyberShadow as Tactical Command's "...biggest threat in recent times..."!

Clickable links for Epic hijinks:
Epic 40K Players Page on Facebook
Net Epic Evolution Rules
Net Epic War! Campaign Rules


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Potential Heretical Thoughts on Titan Hit Charts!
PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2015 11:59 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2012 5:34 pm
Posts: 3111
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Just thinking, wasn't it that you rolled a D6 in AT to see which Titan location you hit?

If so, you could roll the scatter dice with the D6. You could then modify the result by any left/right and up/down results rolled. This would mean deviation rather than blank rolls would now be desirable.

For example, a front chart on a Titan could be:

1 Legs
2 Left Arm Weapon
3 Right Arm Weapon
4 Left Carapace Weapon
5 Right Carapace Weapon
6 Head

A player rolls a D6 and scatter dice. The result is 3 and he rolls a right and an up on the scatter dice.

He could choose to stick with the original result or use each deviation to modify the result accordingly. This would mean that the player could opt for any of the results between 1 - 5...

If this it potentially too wide a spread, players could simply roll the Up/Down die with the D6.

Also, if it would be preferred not to give the option to players, you could force the result upon the player. In the above example this would mean that a 3 result with Up would be an enforced result of 4, while Down would be an enforced result of 2.

Thoughts?

_________________
Proud to be described by CyberShadow as Tactical Command's "...biggest threat in recent times..."!

Clickable links for Epic hijinks:
Epic 40K Players Page on Facebook
Net Epic Evolution Rules
Net Epic War! Campaign Rules


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Potential Heretical Thoughts on Titan Hit Charts!
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2015 12:11 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am
Posts: 27034
Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA
Hi!

The problem with hit location dice is that they thought it would simulate aiming and the scattering of the shot, but it really didn't do that much, since you land roughly where you want a large amount of the time. Also there is no allowance for skill since everyone has the same chance (I would argue that eldar should NOT deviate). You also end up with the situation of "I hit, but didn't" when you scatter off the grid. Makes you wonder why you rolled in the first place.

Under AT once you hit you rolled to see where the shot hit. While they used a d6, it was harder to hit some spots than others. If you devised that system with 2d6 a better spread probability wise of what should be hit would be easier.

I view the hit location system as a fun "gimmick". Entertaining to use, but doesn't really add much to tactical play and does add more time to resolution. Plus, ironically it made titans MORE fragile not less. The non-template system of AT had superficial and critical hits. Much better for titan durability and at least in my view more "realistic".

Primarch

_________________
Primarch


The Primarchload
Magnetized Titans Tutorial
Net Epic Gold
Heresy Rules


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Potential Heretical Thoughts on Titan Hit Charts!
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2015 12:27 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2012 5:34 pm
Posts: 3111
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
If you go down the 2D6 route, you could give forces different accuracy ratings by which they can modify the 2D6 result to get a more favourable location:

Eldar could modify results by up to three
Space Marines & Chaos by two
IG & Squats by one
Orks not at all.

Note that results could be modified up or down depending on their preference.

_________________
Proud to be described by CyberShadow as Tactical Command's "...biggest threat in recent times..."!

Clickable links for Epic hijinks:
Epic 40K Players Page on Facebook
Net Epic Evolution Rules
Net Epic War! Campaign Rules


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Potential Heretical Thoughts on Titan Hit Charts!
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2015 1:04 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 8:45 pm
Posts: 11101
Location: Canton, CT, USA
primarch wrote:
I for one would not mind going back to that system.

I wouldn't mind either. Like you, I "accepted" the hit templates, but preferred AT's system.

_________________
"I don't believe in destiny or the guiding hand of fate." N. Peart


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Potential Heretical Thoughts on Titan Hit Charts!
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2015 2:24 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am
Posts: 27034
Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA
The Bissler wrote:
If you go down the 2D6 route, you could give forces different accuracy ratings by which they can modify the 2D6 result to get a more favourable location:

Eldar could modify results by up to three
Space Marines & Chaos by two
IG & Squats by one
Orks not at all.

Note that results could be modified up or down depending on their preference.


Hi!

Now your thinking Bissler! This is EXACTLY what I'm leading to. A modified 2d6 table from AT can open all sorts of possibilities and this is one of them. You can actually make titans more or less accurate by modifier use. You can't achieve this with hit location templates.

Primarch

_________________
Primarch


The Primarchload
Magnetized Titans Tutorial
Net Epic Gold
Heresy Rules


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Potential Heretical Thoughts on Titan Hit Charts!
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2015 2:29 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am
Posts: 27034
Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA
Dwarf Supreme wrote:
primarch wrote:
I for one would not mind going back to that system.

I wouldn't mind either. Like you, I "accepted" the hit templates, but preferred AT's system.


Hi!

Agreed.

This is not to say 2nd edition didn't do marvelous things. A system where titans and non-titans could bee integrated without the absolute mess of AT/SM1 was a godsend, not to mention the CC rules.

But titans lost in that transaction and I don't think it was necessary. I can easily see an AT based system with modern modifications that would make them tough, yet still be able to mesh with non-titans.

In fact SM2/Netepic goes out of its way to make the two systems different. Why? I would think a unified system where everything has armor saves and such easier.

Heck even bring back superficial and critical hits to vehicles could be done easily.

Many ideas are swimming in my head.... beware.... :D

Primarch

_________________
Primarch


The Primarchload
Magnetized Titans Tutorial
Net Epic Gold
Heresy Rules


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Potential Heretical Thoughts on Titan Hit Charts!
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2015 8:24 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2012 5:34 pm
Posts: 3111
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
The one big flaw in my idea is that it quite obviously benefits some forces over others. How can this be fair? Should there be a points cost penalty applied to the force to reflect this? Something low like 50 points per adjustment, eg zero for Orks, 150 for Eldar who can modify the roll by 3.

I'm definitely against critical & superficial hits to vehicles, sorry! To do so will slow play down and I think the balance is perfect for vehicles, especially now that the Superheavies have their own chart.

Just when I was doing well, eh? ;D

_________________
Proud to be described by CyberShadow as Tactical Command's "...biggest threat in recent times..."!

Clickable links for Epic hijinks:
Epic 40K Players Page on Facebook
Net Epic Evolution Rules
Net Epic War! Campaign Rules


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Potential Heretical Thoughts on Titan Hit Charts!
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2015 1:23 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 12:16 am
Posts: 1003
A 2d6 system was my first thoughts, something like this for a Warlord Titan:

Attachment:
Warlord Titan Hit Chart.jpg
Warlord Titan Hit Chart.jpg [ 87.58 KiB | Viewed 2496 times ]


It is very similar to what they use in Battletech and I can see Titans being more resilient because of it.

I wouldn't like to see specific armies get an advantage for targeting titans. How good a unit shoots is already included in their stats.
I did think about an option to aim or target if you are under First Fire Orders. Something like, you shot at a -2 to hit, but you may choose the location you hit on the titan. Obviously that makes weapons with low "To Hit" numbers quite good, but all the "To Hit" numbers are being reviewed under Platinum and I will be getting rid of lots of the 2+/3+ numbers. But some armies like Eldar which are likely to have a few more better to hit rolls than others might get a bit more out of it. Plus with it being a game wide rule, it doesn't have to be costed for an army.

Definitely wouldn't want to see different levels of criticals and damage on vehicles. In fact if we implement a Damage Point system as being discussed in another topic, we could most probably just rid of the Super Heavy Critical Table.

Matt


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Potential Heretical Thoughts on Titan Hit Charts!
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2015 1:35 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2012 5:34 pm
Posts: 3111
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
I like this very much Mattman and you're right the resilience of Titans would be greatly imrpoved by the fact that hitting the head or reactor would be difficult on a Warlord because you need to roll 2 or 12 on 2D6 which is fairly unlikely. It also means the removal of the reactors on the front of WRlords would be less necessary.

When designing tables for Warhounds in particular but also for Reavers, I'd like to see a higher chance of hitting the head, this reflecting that they are lower points costs and therefore easier to take down.

The option to fire at Titans with a -2 but resulting hits mean that the player can pick which location is a great idea also and means that we are not unfairly penalising certain armies as you point out.

I must have a hunt for your Suoerheavy critical table, I missed that one.

Great work!

_________________
Proud to be described by CyberShadow as Tactical Command's "...biggest threat in recent times..."!

Clickable links for Epic hijinks:
Epic 40K Players Page on Facebook
Net Epic Evolution Rules
Net Epic War! Campaign Rules


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Potential Heretical Thoughts on Titan Hit Charts!
PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2015 1:41 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2014 2:20 am
Posts: 351
Location: Wincanton, Somerset
I like the system war machine uses for the jacks, you would have a damage grid and when damage is done you roll a D6 for the column the damage is applied. At the bottom of the columns is locations or limb indicated with a letter once all of the lettered(L for left arm, R for Right, so on and so on) once all of a certain letter is crossed out that location is lost or the titan suffers some sort of penalty. the roll is placed on a column and is fully applied to this column any excess is applied to the next column on the right, at 6 it goes back to 1.


Attachments:
Damage Table.jpg
Damage Table.jpg [ 43.39 KiB | Viewed 2493 times ]
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 46 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net