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[NEP] Weapon Ranges

 Post subject: [NEP] Weapon Ranges
PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 3:10 pm 
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There have been some mutterings on here regarding weapon ranges and how they are a bit off, plus a recent few discussions on some FB groups have raised a few queries to. Along with how games seem to deteriorate into long range fire fights.
As I have been working through the next iteration of the marine list and the new eldar list, it also struck me how awkward the ranges are for some weapons and how illogical they are for others. The easiest is comparing basic weapons (bolters, shuriken catapults, las guns) to heavy weapons. Most heavy weapons have a range of 75cm and and basics have a range of 50cm, but in reality, basic weapons are unlikely to be able to shoot 2/3 the range of a heavy weapon. In fact those basic weapons work better at even shorter ranges these days (12") and don't really work at anything greater than 24" (heavy weapons reach 48" typically).
So I have been thinking about adjusting the ranges and rather than working in 25cm jumps (which is the old norm apart from a few oddities), moving to 15cm bands with the following guidelines.
Pistol armed 15cm
Basic armed 30cm
Heavy Weapon armed 60cm+
I think 15cm gives us a better granularity to work with and gives us a better way of differentiating some of the fun weapons these models have. Plus by knocking ranges back a bit for the majority of models, it gives things like artillery and titans a bit more of an impact.

Thoughts?

Matt


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 Post subject: Re: [NEP] Weapon Ranges
PostPosted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 8:27 pm 
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Hi!

There were two things that I though SM2 (and therefore net epic) did not do well transitioning from AT1/SM1.

1. The titan rules

2. The weapon ranges.

Weapon ranges are way overinflated. If you look at SM1/AT1 the most powerful long range weapon has a reach of 72cm. In net epic we have ranges of 100, 150 and sometimes more. For the scale and size of a common tabletop it is too much range It NEEDS to be shortened.

Long ranges are the key factor in the complaint of "static" battles with little maneuver and too much hunkering down and shooting. If ranges are shorter them movement and maneuver are a necessity.

Mattman, you may want to look at AT/SM1 ranges for an idea, it seems you suggestions are close to those originally presented in that rule set. I can provide you the full PDF suite of rules and articles if they are not available to you.

Another aspect you may need to look at is movement of individual elements. This also got increased in SM2/net epic. Warhounds moving 25cm and jet bikes with moves of 35cm is way to high IMO.

A game with shorter ranges and movement rates stimulates movement and maneuver and underemphazises the usually "race to first fire" that some games devolve into.

That is just a long way of saying, yes I agree. ;)

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: [NEP] Weapon Ranges
PostPosted: Mon Dec 01, 2014 2:20 am 
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primarch wrote:
Hi!

There were two things that I though SM2 (and therefore net epic) did not do well transitioning from AT1/SM1.

1. The titan rules

2. The weapon ranges.

I totally agree. Ranges and movement rates were increased way too much.

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 Post subject: Re: [NEP] Weapon Ranges
PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 8:11 pm 
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If you do the maths, assuming 40k has a scale of 1:60 and epic is 1:300, then basic weapons like boltguns should have a range of 12cm ;D
But then the rules always skipped over the use of special and heavy weapons in basic squads, so what impact would they make on the effective range of a stand.
Looking through the EA rules it seems they went back to a similar system that was seen in the days of AT/SM1 and have multiple weapon options per stand. They have small arms which cover the short range basic weapons and only come into play in an assault and then the heavy weapons which reach out to 60cm. I am almost tempted to borrow some of the ideas from EA and bring them into NetEpic ::)


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 Post subject: Re: [NEP] Weapon Ranges
PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 9:18 pm 
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Mattman wrote:
If you do the maths, assuming 40k has a scale of 1:60 and epic is 1:300, then basic weapons like boltguns should have a range of 12cm ;D
But then the rules always skipped over the use of special and heavy weapons in basic squads, so what impact would they make on the effective range of a stand.
Looking through the EA rules it seems they went back to a similar system that was seen in the days of AT/SM1 and have multiple weapon options per stand. They have small arms which cover the short range basic weapons and only come into play in an assault and then the heavy weapons which reach out to 60cm. I am almost tempted to borrow some of the ideas from EA and bring them into NetEpic ::)


Hi!

Well, your not really borrowing from E:A, that concept is the cornerstone of FIRST edition.

So really you'd be borrowing ideas from it, plus its an easier sell explaining it that way. ;)

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: [NEP] Weapon Ranges
PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 6:14 am 
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I have no problem with weapon ranges being re-examined for Platinum. Just one thing. Don't limit them to 15cm bands. Feel free to use 5cm for more granularity, as that is what the Points Formula is set up for. Admittedly, it can handle range values down to a single cm (theoretically even smaller, but I doubt we'd go that far), but it prefers multiples of 5cm.

The Range value could even be changed into an incremental system instead of a flat maximum. For example, if a Weapon were defined as having a Range of 10cm, it would use it's normal listed to hit value for any target up to and including 10cm away, but would have a -1 to hit a target from 11 to 20cm away, a -2 from 21 to 30cm, etc. This could make the game more like 40K (I think) and would add a bit of realism. It would also make high Range and good 'to hit' weapons much, much more valuable. Obviously, we'd have to state whether the maximum allowable range stops at 6+ or if three more bands are allowed (by rolling another d6).

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 Post subject: Re: [NEP] Weapon Ranges
PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 9:44 am 
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This really interests me, especially as it could actually be something that would aid my Evolution project. One of the issues I had was that ranges were so long that I had to introduce a fog of war rule to prevent players picking off units before they'd even moved. A reduction in move rates and ranges could result in me not having to enforce that rule.

I'm not for a second suggesting that this is kept in mind when rejigging the move rates and values (Evolution has survived dozens of play tests and is working very well as it is), just that I like the idea and will be monitoring this thread very closely! ;)

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 Post subject: Re: [NEP] Weapon Ranges
PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 5:14 pm 
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Hi!

The reduction of ranges and movement rates, would have a profound impact on a lot of mechanics. One in particular I'm looking over is flyers.

If movement is reduced, the ploy of "mega-drops" of troops is lessened or eliminated, since fliers would have to loiter on the battlefield longer if the move rate is reduced and you wish to strike deep into the opponents lines. I think fliers should be the only unit to move 50cm or more in a single turn.

Titan close combat weapons would become much more useful too. Closing a 50cm gap to engage is not the same as 75 or 100 due to weapon ranges on titans. If optimal firing range is 50cm or less then CC becomes a lot more attractive.

Overall I think basic anti-personnel weapons should have a range of no more than 15cm, with most "tank weapons" being in the 35cm to 50cm range max. Few weapons should reach 75cm, with should be the direct fire range maximum.

Artillery should average between 60-75cm. Maximum should be around 80-90.

NOTHING should have ranges of 100 or more. Its just too much.

Also, as far as movement, I think going back to the AT1/SM model where charge orders gave you a bonus to you move and NOT double movement should be adopted. Also let them fire at -1 on charge OR as per one of my suggestions, where if you double move you can't fire and if you move at the lesser charge bonus rate you could fire at -1 to hit.

In any event movement rates have to be lowered. Infantry is okay at a base of 10cm, but most tanks should be between 15cm and 20cm for tracked/wheeled vehicles.

The maximum should be 25cm for grav and other "swift" vehicles. Move rates of more than 25cm are overpowered and should not exist.

Titan moves should be in relation to the size. With larger ones moving no more than 10cm, 15cm for medium and 20cm for the smallest and fastest.

I think these things make for a better game. :)

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 Post subject: Re: [NEP] Weapon Ranges
PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 5:20 pm 
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My only comment would be that if you are going to reduce weapon ranges you may want to carefully consider reducing the speed of units; it could easily result in many units taking several turns to get involved.

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 Post subject: Re: [NEP] Weapon Ranges
PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 5:35 pm 
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The Bissler wrote:
My only comment would be that if you are going to reduce weapon ranges you may want to carefully consider reducing the speed of units; it could easily result in many units taking several turns to get involved.

To put another spin on that thought, reducing both Move and Range will lead to games taking more turns and thus a longer amount of real-world time to complete. While this may not necessarily be a bad thing overall, it should be kept in mind.

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 Post subject: Re: [NEP] Weapon Ranges
PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 5:38 pm 
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Or that suggested/standard table size to points need modification. Again, as MI states, not necessarily a bad thing.

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 Post subject: Re: [NEP] Weapon Ranges
PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 7:52 pm 
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jimmyzimms wrote:
Or that suggested/standard table size to points need modification. Again, as MI states, not necessarily a bad thing.


Hi!

I think this is a point worth repeating.

I play on an unusually large table 5 feet wide (instead of 4) by 8 feet long (instead of six), so the recommended table size has to be stipulated.

But there is another aspect that needs clarification as well. With these changes a system of SCENARIOS for playing games also needs to be added.

The usual "line them up and attack" cannot be the only scenario available. Once proper scenarios are added (which will define setups and separation of opponents) the concerns of taking to much time to engage will be either reduced or eliminated.

All this said, I think weapon range is the biggest offender and needs the most tweaking. Movement ranges are usually okay (which some exceptions) and I think if a switch to charge orders being a bonus to base move (not double move), then there is even less need to change it wholesale.

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 Post subject: Re: [NEP] Weapon Ranges
PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 12:46 am 
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I just threw 15cm out as an option, 5cm makes a lot more sense and is something I have been pondering recently to.
Making ranges and move speed shorter might make the games longer in number of turns, but actual game length might stay the same as in the first few turns there is likely to be very little firing or CC, so you could pretty much skip these parts of the turn and then the last few turns get very bloody as everything comes into range.
Most games these days stipulate a standard table size and very few differ from 6'x4', so I don't see any reason to not follow the norm.
With regards, to scenarios, I posted these sometime ago:

http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=159&t=27731

Obviously the dimensions can be changed, but something like that could be all that is needed to vary the game enough from the norm to make each game different. Hell once you know what the deployment zones look like, you could randomise the separation distance to make things even more interesting.
Actual specific scenarios that require predetermined roles (attacker/defender etc) should really be considered in the optionals book ;)

I don't think doubling for charge is a bad thing as long as we tweak some of the super fast move rates.

Matt


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 Post subject: Re: [NEP] Weapon Ranges
PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 1:09 am 
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Hi!

Most of the bigger movement offenders are on the Eldar list. Jet bikes moving 30 or 35cm and doubling that is just too much. Nothing should be able to cover around 70cm (almost the range of some heavy tank weapons) in one turn.

I guess everyone likes double move because its easy to remember, but it needs some good amount of readjusting. When you decrease some, them you have to evaluate everything for comparison. That is if a jetbike is now 25cm, then a rhino cannot be 25cm as well. Even one change means reassessing everything else to make sure its congruent overall.

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 Post subject: Re: [NEP] Weapon Ranges
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 11:55 am 
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primarch wrote:
Hi!

Most of the bigger movement offenders are on the Eldar list. Jet bikes moving 30 or 35cm and doubling that is just too much. Nothing should be able to cover around 70cm (almost the range of some heavy tank weapons) in one turn.

Primarch


Actually they do move that fast (they have a 36" boost move they can use if they don't charge or shoot!), I have been comparing move speeds across the different units and will post some findings in due course.

Matt


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