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NEP Space Marine Formations and Stats

 Post subject: Re: NEP Space Marine Formations and Stats
PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 8:56 pm 
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SquiggleAmp wrote:
I thought this was a next gen project by the community for the community, the next step on from gold. It is sad to see that people are so resistant to change and unwilling to at least give it a try. Everyone is entitled to give feedback but it is your project and you should have the final call on the content. I was looking forward to seeing this project completed. Take all the time you need to make it the game you want to play mate and share it with those similar minded gamers.

Squiggle


Hi!

"change" is not something that I have seen embraced in any version of net epic. A tweak here and there or a modification based on something from SM1, sure, the kind of stuff we've been talking about for Platinum is something the wider net epic community never embraces with any majority vote.

However, I always encourage these kinds of projects because they are important. Not everyone likes to play the "stock" game all the time. I for one embrace "change".

Perhaps that is an odd attitude for the person that runs net epic, but there it is.

As far as Platinum goes, Mattman has my support to develop it any way he wishes and I will help him to do it however I can. :)

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 Post subject: Re: NEP Space Marine Formations and Stats
PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 9:20 pm 
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Well said


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 Post subject: Re: NEP Space Marine Formations and Stats
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 6:00 am 
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Last post almost a year ago. So is this dead then? I really liked what I saw here and so did by Black Templar friend who absolutely hates how NEG currently stats units (specifically, a Landraider Crusader armed with only assault cannons when all of my Tau hammerheads and crisis suits get two weapons).

To make him happy, I am going to use the stats here and use the points formula to get them legal and write him a new Templars list and then I am going to rewrite the Tau in a similar manner to this.

What I really like here is a bolter is a bolter is a bolter. I noticed in NEG that an autocannon on a thunderhawk has different stats than an autocannon on a thunderbolt which is pretty stupid. I can understand the number of shots being different to represent the number of cannons present but the thunderhawk has a -2 save while the thunderbolt has a -1. Just irritating.

Anyway, custom Templars list inbound asap followed by updated Tau. Formations will stay in line with current release until I actually see any work at all done with platinum and formation changes. I'd love to see platinum come to life but it seems like nobody is even working on it now.


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 Post subject: Re: NEP Space Marine Formations and Stats
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 2:27 pm 
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OmniJackal, you bring up a great point.

So as far as I am concerned (and a few others) NE:P is anything but dead. Primarch hit a busy spot at work late last year (as did I) and things slowed down a bit, but everyone does work in the background.

One of the Core elements to NE:P is going to be the Points Formula, which has been under continual development.

Also, as you can see I am beginning the Army Books from the ground up, but that is part in parcel to the NE:G Optionals book.

Lots of stuff going on and hopefully the Board Re-alignment makes things more streamlined and clear.


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 Post subject: Re: NEP Space Marine Formations and Stats
PostPosted: Sat Apr 09, 2016 2:50 pm 
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Is the points formula as it sits now pretty much good to go? Every game I've played with the Tau so far has shown me they are incredibly strong and the fact that their units are more detailed tells me that they were written long after the marines. I will also be modifying the ranges in my two rewrites utilizing the opinions in the thread about lowering ranges. I may lower all weapon and movement ranges. Infantry move too fast compared to their vehicle counterparts and because of this transports aren't nearly as important as they could be.


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 Post subject: Re: NEP Space Marine Formations and Stats
PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 5:35 pm 
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The Points Formula is currently at a usable and fairly stable point. There are a few tweaks I'm still considering making, but I'm mostly doing other things just now. I'll see about getting the current values for the rest of the factions posted soon.

Do try a couple of games with V0.43 points and let us know if they are balanced.

One thing I have been poking at recently is the weapons issue. Specifically, looking at all of the variations of each named weapon so we can see if we can standardize them some. I probably would have had those posted by now, but nobody has posted on any of my questions about the process, so I lost some motivation. I'll see if I can get back to that.

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 Post subject: Re: NEP Space Marine Formations and Stats
PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 6:16 pm 
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I'm doing 3 rewrites now (marines/templars, tau, orks) to play test. I just finished statting the marines but only the chapter master has points. Some of the points instructions aren't written clearly such as whether im adding final values together or multiplying them and in what order. I'll post an example of the chapter master when I get inside.

Only fix I can think of is include the to-hit value in the unit cost rather than the weapon cost. I will try this. In my new marines, they're all hitting on 4s instead of 5a. Everything in the game will either shoot better than or worse than a marine.


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 Post subject: Re: NEP Space Marine Formations and Stats
PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 6:30 pm 
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I've lowered move and weapon ranges. Marines have had their to-hit base increased to 4. Will be plugging in more numbers today.


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 Post subject: Re: NEP Space Marine Formations and Stats
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 3:55 am 
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OmniJackal wrote:
Some of the points instructions aren't written clearly such as whether I'm adding final values together or multiplying them and in what order.


Could you be more specific as to which sections are not clear? Preferably post such in the Points Formula thread rather than here. As far as I can tell, it is all clear, but then I wrote it so I may be too close to it.

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 Post subject: Re: NEP Space Marine Formations and Stats
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 4:46 am 
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Your total points are a little bit off there. You are close though.

As a note, this game uses centimeters for ranges, not inches. Please post all stats as cm. The formula assumes the use of cm so you will have to convert for cost generation, so you may as well use that anyway.

I'm guessing that "6++" means "Fixed 6+". This should be shown as "F6+" or "6+F" for NetEpic.

You did not specify the Move for the Bike nor what adjustment the Terminator armor has (guessing it adjusts the Save value), so I cannot process those at this time.

Since you didn't show how you got those values, I'll show how they should be generated.

Chapter Master stand
_Type: Infantry (1)
Terrain: Infantry (2.75)
Move: 7.5cm (1.5)
Move Abilities: Command (2)
_ Move cost: 2.75*1.5*2 = 8.25
_ Armor Save: 5+/F6+ = (2+2)*3 = 4*3 = 12
_ CAF: +7 & Elite = (7*1.5)*(1+2.75+1.5+2) = 10.5*7.25 = 76.13
_ Chapter Relics: base cost 2 (direct fire weapon)
Range 15cm (0.3)
#Attacks 2 (2)
To Hit 2+ (3)
TSM -2 (3)
Command (1.5)
Fire Arc 360 (1.5)
Weapon cost: 2*0.3*2*3*3*1.5*1.5 = 24.3
_ HQ (10)
_ Inspirational (10)
_ Combat Leader (10)
_ Morale -- (1.4)
Total Cost: (Type + Move + Save + CAF + Weapons + fixed SA) * % SA * Morale * Command/Orders
= (1 +8.25 +12 +76.3 +24.3 +10+10+10) *1 (no % SA) *1.4 *1 (no C/O adjustments)
= 99.175 *1.4 = 138.845 which may round off to 139.

The Chapter Master should have a separate line entry for each variant, if just to show the differences to the stats. For example, just looking at what you posted above, a person would not know what the Move would be when purchased on a Bike. Similarly, when a stand is equipped with Jump, it usually has it's Move increased as well. As you did not list such, I am going to assume, perhaps incorrectly, that it is the same as the base stand.

The Chapter Master with Jump is nearly the same as that above, so only changed lines are shown.
Move Abilities: Command (2), Jump (1.25)
_ Move cost: 2.75*1.5*2*1.25 = 10.3125
Total Cost
= (1 +10.3125 +12 +76.3 +24.3 +10+10+10) *1 (no % SA) *1.4 *1 (no C/O adjustments)
= 106.4875 *1.4 = 149.0825 which may round off to 149.

If the Chapter Master on Bike has the same Move as the normal stand (IE, 7.5cm) then it's cost would be 232. Obviously, it's Move would be higher, thus the cost would be as well.

If the Terminator version of your Chapter Master has 4+/F6+ as Armor Save, then it's total cost is 143. Thus you are basically right there.

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 Post subject: Re: NEP Space Marine Formations and Stats
PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 4:53 am 
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Jump pack increase movement by 6". Rewriting a bunch of stuff. Americanizing it. Those will be in school special rules section. I'm using CM when calculating movement. Also totally forgot to put a fire arc on the gun.


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 Post subject: Re: NEP Space Marine Formations and Stats
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 12:32 am 
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Infantry almost (if not absolutely) always have a fire arc of 360 degrees, so not specifying that should not be a problem, though it does have to be accounted for in the weapon's cost. As do Light Artillery, Cavalry, & Walker. However, you should probably specify fire arcs for any weapon on a Vehicle or higher pinning class.

"Americanizing" it. Ah, so dumbing it down. Right. Please don't do that. All published versions of the game released in the USA were made using cm as their standard. Measuring the distances needed for this game should not be that difficult for anyone these days. Heck, even I learned both inches and cm back in school. For reference, I am a middle-aged American, and mostly use inches, feet, miles, etc in daily usage. However, this game is an international thing, and thus should remain in cm. End rant.

As to the Jump equipped CM, his Move of 22.5cm adjusts his value there to 4.5, which adjusts his Movement cost to:
_ Move cost: 2.75*4.5*2*1.25 = 30.9375
This adjusts his Total Cost to 222.058, rounds to 222.

What are you using as the Move value for Bikes? Do also note that adding a Bike to the CM turns the stand into a Cavalry stand, which is another reason it should have its own line entry.

I hope that the above examples help to clarify any previously unclear sections of the formula, as you had mentioned some parts being unclear. If not, please specify exactly which bits are unclear.

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 Post subject: Re: NEP Space Marine Formations and Stats
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 12:52 am 
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I use CM every day and I don't like them. They're racist against Prussians.

Bike is also +6" and 6++ save.

I'm using Gold as a basis to write my own rules. The people who want to use it can. The people who want to continue using decade rulesets can do that too. I'm out to please myself and my local group. That's about it. Separate entries is cluttered and unnecessary. As long as I do the math for each entry I see nothing wrong with saying a bike is +15 points and gives +6" to move and a 6++ jink save. I've done similar to the dreadnoughts. Two listings now instead of 8.


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 Post subject: Re: NEP Space Marine Formations and Stats
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 8:39 pm 
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Also I'm not sure if you're being serious by calling Americans dumb but this is happening regardless of what you want or say. I want inches, I'm spending all the time on the project for myself, I'm going to get inches. I need infantry to move 3", not 7.5cm.


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 Post subject: Re: NEP Space Marine Formations and Stats
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 11:45 pm 
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I'm not sure how you got 1.4 for the morale value but here's the final chapter master with his upgrades.

And here's the special rules for the wargear items
WARGEAR
Jump Pack - +3” move, Jump
Bike - +6” move, 6++ jink save, cavalry
Terminator Armor - +1 CAF, +1 attack dice, save +1+/+1++


And here's all of my math

Chapter Master stand
_Type: Infantry (1)
Terrain: Infantry (2.75)
Move: 7.5cm (1.5)
Move Abilities: Command (2)
_ Move cost: 2.75*1.5*2 = 8.25
_ Armor Save: 5+/5++ = 2*3 + 2*6 = 18
_ CAF: +6 & Elite = (6*1.5)*(1+2.75+1.5+2) = 9*7.25 = 65.25
_ Chapter Relics: base cost 2 (direct fire weapon)
Range 15cm (0.3)
#Attacks 1 (1)
To Hit 3+ (2)
TSM -1 (2)
Command (1.5)
Fire Arc 360 (1.5)
Weapon cost: 2*0.3*1*2*2*1.5*1.5 = 5.4
_ HQ (10)
_ Chapter Master (15)
_ Inspirational (10)
_ Morale -- (1.3)
Total Cost: (Type + Move + Save + CAF + Weapons + fixed SA) * % SA * Morale * Command/Orders
= (1 +8.25 +18 +65.25 +5.4 +10+10+15) *1 (no % SA) *1.3 *1 (no C/O adjustments)
= 132.9 *1.3 = 172.77 which may round off to 175.

Chapter Master Jump Pack stand
_Type: Infantry (1)
Terrain: Infantry (2.75)
Move: 15cm (3)
Move Abilities: Command (2), Jump (1.25)
_ Move cost: 2.75*3*2*1.25 = 20.625
_ Armor Save: 5+/5++ = 2*3 + 2*6 = 18
_ CAF: +6 & Elite = (6*1.5)*(1+2.75+3+2+1.25) = 9*10 = 90
_ Chapter Relics: base cost 2 (direct fire weapon)
Range 15cm (0.3)
#Attacks 1 (1)
To Hit 3+ (2)
TSM -1 (2)
Command (1.5)
Fire Arc 360 (1.5)
Weapon cost: 2*0.3*1*2*2*1.5*1.5 = 5.4
_ HQ (10)
_ Chapter Master (15)
_ Inspirational (10)
_ Morale -- (1.3)
Total Cost: (Type + Move + Save + CAF + Weapons + fixed SA) * % SA * Morale * Command/Orders
= (1 +20.625 +18 +90 +5.4 +10+10+15) *1 (no % SA) *1.3 *1 (no C/O adjustments)
= 170.025 *1.3 = 221.032 which may round off to 220

Chapter Master Bike stand
_Type: Cavalry (2)
Terrain: Cavalry (2)
Move: 23cm (4.6)
Move Abilities: Command (2)
_ Move cost: 2*4.6*2* = 18.4
_ Armor Save: 5+/5++ = 2*3 + 2*6 = 18
_ CAF: +6 & Elite = (6*1.5)*(2+2+4.6+2) = 9*10.6 = 95.4
_ Chapter Relics: base cost 2 (direct fire weapon)
Range 15cm (0.3)
#Attacks 1 (1)
To Hit 3+ (2)
TSM -1 (2)
Command (1.5)
Fire Arc 360 (1.5)
Weapon cost: 2*0.3*1*2*2*1.5*1.5 = 5.4
_ HQ (10)
_ Chapter Master (15)
_ Inspirational (10)
_ Morale -- (1.3)
Total Cost: (Type + Move + Save + CAF + Weapons + fixed SA) * % SA * Morale * Command/Orders
= (2 +18.4 +18 +95.4 +5.4 +10+10+15) *1 (no % SA) *1.3 *1 (no C/O adjustments)
= 174.2 *1.3 = 226.46 which may round off to 225

Chapter Master Terminator stand
_Type: Infantry (1)
Terrain: Infantry (2.75)
Move: 7.5cm (1.5)
Move Abilities: Command (2)
_ Move cost: 2.75*1.5*2 = 8.25
_ Armor Save: 4+/4++ = 3*3 + 3*6 = 27
_ CAF: +7 & Elite = (7*1.5)*(1+2.75+1.5+2) = 10.5*7.25 = 76.125
_ Chapter Relics: base cost 2 (direct fire weapon)
Range 15cm (0.3)
#Attacks 2 (2)
To Hit 3+ (2)
TSM -1 (2)
Command (1.5)
Fire Arc 360 (1.5)
Weapon cost: 2*0.3*2*2*2*1.5*1.5 = 10.8
_ HQ (10)
_ Chapter Master (15)
_ Inspirational (10)
_ Morale -- (1.3)
Total Cost: (Type + Move + Save + CAF + Weapons + fixed SA) * % SA * Morale * Command/Orders
= (1 +8.25 +27 +76.125 +10.8 +10+10+15) *1 (no % SA) *1.3 *1 (no C/O adjustments)
= 158.175 *1.3 = 205.627 which may round off to 205


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