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NEP Space Marine Formations and Stats

 Post subject: Re: NEP Space Marine Formations and Stats
PostPosted: Thu Dec 18, 2014 9:28 pm 
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Those values you posted look good. But just to double check [enters data] hmm, a few seem slightly off. The following are the ones you posted, adding Jump+Bulky (JB) to the list, with your value of 0.5 for Bulky.

The first column of points is before adjustments for Morale & BP, and the second is including them. I wasn't quite sure whether you were including them or not. Since you didn't show your work, I'll show mine. File attached. [Adjustments to the file are limited to basic infantry, as that's all you've posted so far, but I did extrapolate for HQ stands.]

Infantry ______ pre __ with
Stand ________ M/BP __ M/BP _ rounded
Assault ______ 29.2 __ 17.52 _ 20
Assault J ____ 56.2 __ 33.72 _ 35
Assault JB ___ 42.7 __ 25.62 _ 25
Assault Term _ 77 ____ 50.05 _ 50
Cent Dev _____ 37.5 __ 22.5 __ 25
Cent Assault _ 39.1 __ 23.46 _ 25
Devastator ___ 23 ____ 13.8 __ 15
Scout ________ 35.2 __ 19.36 _ 20
Sniper Scout _ 75.8 __ 41.69 _ 40
Sternguard ___ 45 ____ 29.25 _ 30
Tactical _____ 24.5 __ 14.7 __ 15
Terminator ___ 66.5 __ 43.23 _ 45
Vanguard _____ 51.7 __ 33.61 _ 35
Vanguard J ___ 94.45 _ 61.4 __ 60
Vanguard JB __ 64.45 _ 41.89 _ 40


As to the Whirlwind, it's higher Move than say a Basilisk or Bombard is what makes it a "fast attack" artillery piece. It should be good as it is.


Attachments:
Unit points formula Platinum.xls [122 KiB]
Downloaded 152 times

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 Post subject: Re: NEP Space Marine Formations and Stats
PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 2:11 am 
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Cheers Magnus, it is very handy to see the working out in a spreadsheet and I can see if I have missed anything.
One thing that is different is the CAF calculation. I was using the CAF multiplied by 4 system whereas you are using the other system that uses the Type/Move/Modifier values.
Reading back in the points post I noticed you mentioned that being one way of working out the CAF value, what is your reasoning for moving to that system?

I also added a value to the total based on the Morale of the stand, although there was nothing written in your calculation document, you give a value in your Tactical Marine example of 8 (there is only the bit about formations getting a saving or costing more based on their morale value). So I used that under the assumption that the base morale is 4 for 0 pts, with each point of morale costing 4 points, so 4pts for a morale of 3, 8pts for a morale of 2, 12 for a morale of 1 etc.

For the time being I am going to start populating the army list based on the the single stand/model costs, now that I have a better understanding of the formula, but with Company stands/models getting a 10% discount (and everything getting tweaked for range). Should give us an idea of were we stand and areas that may need tweaking in the cost formula. Will also give me a chance to try out my own tweaks for some of the new rules/models/options.

Matt


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 Post subject: Re: NEP Space Marine Formations and Stats
PostPosted: Fri Dec 19, 2014 8:24 am 
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Mattman wrote:
Cheers Magnus, it is very handy to see the working out in a spreadsheet and I can see if I have missed anything.

You are welcome. I tried to post the file as an ods, but it wouldn't allow that, so I converted to xls. Hopefully no formulae were lost in the transition. I really should have posted that a while ago, if for no other reason than to explain the mathematical tech-speak I used a ways above to explain why I was changing my mind and saying that your Formations document should just use values as if BP was always 1/2. See columns Z through BJ for the actual math used.

Mattman wrote:
One thing that is different is the CAF calculation. I was using the CAF multiplied by 4 system whereas you are using the other system that uses the Type/Move/Modifier values.
Reading back in the points post I noticed you mentioned that being one way of working out the CAF value, what is your reasoning for moving to that system?

The rationale for the change (IE tweak) to the CAF calculation was explained over in that thread. Let me see if I can find that fairly quickly.* I am planning on shifting the Points Formula over to that, as well as the tweak to Ranged values (base cost of 1 for direct fire rather than 4, and halving the base cost of templates). As a result, all of the values I've generated for Platinum have used these tweaks, and I strongly feel that you should use them as well.

* I am not finding where the change to CAF was discussed, so I'm thinking it must have been in some other thread, but I have no idea where. The thought is that the faster a model can move, the more valuable it's CAF value is. In other words, a +2 CAF should have a higher cost for a model with a Move of 25cm than for one with 10cm. Similarly, that same +2 should be more expensive for a Command, Skimmer, Flyer, etc than for a model without these, as such model will be able to get into close combat more easily than a slower moving & maneuvering model.

Mattman wrote:
I also added a value to the total based on the Morale of the stand, although there was nothing written in your calculation document, you give a value in your Tactical Marine example of 8 (there is only the bit about formations getting a saving or costing more based on their morale value). So I used that under the assumption that the base morale is 4 for 0 pts, with each point of morale costing 4 points, so 4pts for a morale of 3, 8pts for a morale of 2, 12 for a morale of 1 etc.

Um, that is incorrect. The modifiers for Morale, Break Point, Chain-of-Command, and Formation type most definitely are in the Points Formula posts [NetEpic Alternate Rules / The Great Points Formula Debate / page 10, posts 6 & 7]. I had to put the 'model value' and 'formation modifiers' in separate posts as they were too long as one post, but they are most definitely there. If you were referring to the spreadsheet posted above, you are still incorrect. Column X covers the modifiers for Morale scores, though it does not explain them.

I don't know where you are getting a value of 8 for Morale for a ... ah, just realized. Yeah, the example of a Tactical Marine stand in the Points Formula itself is very old and out of date and those examples should be deleted / ignored. I'll try to remember to update them when I next edit those posts.

Your assumption that a Morale value of 4 is baseline is correct and has no modifier to the final cost. However, Morale values varying from 4 do not have a fixed value. Rather they apply a multiplier to the 'model value' (total of Move, Save, CAF, Weapon(s), & SA). Refer to column X in the file for examples of this. Morale 5 gives a 10% reduction in cost. Morale 3 increases cost by 10%, Morale 2 increases by 20%, and Morale 1 increases by 30%. Models with "Fearless", "AI", or who otherwise have a Morale score of "--" have their cost increased by 40%.

Mattman wrote:
For the time being I am going to start populating the army list based on the the single stand/model costs, now that I have a better understanding of the formula, but with Company stands/models getting a 10% discount (and everything getting tweaked for range). Should give us an idea of were we stand and areas that may need tweaking in the cost formula. Will also give me a chance to try out my own tweaks for some of the new rules/models/options.

Do please include the modifiers for Morale and BP, especially since you so vehemently wanted me to include them when I wasn't going to. But you convinced me that they should be there, so they should be there.

For reference, column Y would be the one to refer to for a 'final value' for Support Formation elements. It includes all adjustments (for Marines) aside from Formation type. Reducing that by 10% for Company Formation elements would be appropriate, and 20% for Special Formation elements.

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 Post subject: Re: NEP Space Marine Formations and Stats
PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 1:17 am 
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Linking CAF to movement is a good idea, will run with that for now unless we tweak it.

Will update my numbers to take into account morale and BP and see where that takes us.
I guess there will be a few iterations as we have a premise for army building and a cost formula, we just need to get them to mesh.

Matt


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 Post subject: Re: NEP Space Marine Formations and Stats
PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 3:54 am 
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Don't forget about the tweaks to Weapon costs. The thought with those was that many weapon systems were coming out of the formula at very high costs, and they should be reduced. While these adjustments reduce all weapon costs, the most expensive ones are affected the most. While I summarized above, the changes there are as follows:

Direct fire weapons have their base cost reduced from 4 points to 1 point, adjusted as normal. This affects any weapon that does not use a Template.

Template weapons have their base cost halved. Thus the 6cm Barrage template which used to cost 4 points now costs 2, a Large Teardrop now costs 7.5 rather than 15, etc.

I suppose you are likely already using the weapon tweaks and just did not specifically mention them.

Oh, it should be obvious, but any reductions for Formation type should be made before the final value is rounded to the nearest 5 points. Or were we just doing the nearest whole number for Platinum?

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 Post subject: Re: NEP Space Marine Formations and Stats
PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2014 5:27 pm 
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Hey SquiggleAmp, I found a source for you for "shadow models" for most Imperial things. Admittedly, you may have already found this, but you may not, thus sharing.

http://img0.joyreactor.cc/pics/post/ful ... 08736.jpeg

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 Post subject: Re: NEP Space Marine Formations and Stats
PostPosted: Mon Dec 29, 2014 6:45 pm 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
Hey SquiggleAmp, I found a source for you for "shadow models" for most Imperial things. Admittedly, you may have already found this, but you may not, thus sharing.

http://img0.joyreactor.cc/pics/post/ful ... 08736.jpeg


Hi!

Great find Magnus!

Bookmarked.

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: NEP Space Marine Formations and Stats
PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 5:26 am 
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Mattman, are you planning to adjust Move values along the same lines as the adjustments to Weapon Range values that you have discussed elsewhere? Doing so would help you in your quest for closer to current W40K stats for things.

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 Post subject: Re: NEP Space Marine Formations and Stats
PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 1:56 pm 
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Cheers magnus great find, i'll add what I need, cheers again ;)


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 Post subject: Re: NEP Space Marine Formations and Stats
PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2015 3:28 pm 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
Mattman, are you planning to adjust Move values along the same lines as the adjustments to Weapon Range values that you have discussed elsewhere? Doing so would help you in your quest for closer to current W40K stats for things.


There will be a few changes from my early look through, but not as many as the weapons. I am planning on keeping infantry movement at 10cm and then working everything up from there. I have done some rough calcs on how proportionally faster other things move compared to infantry, so will just use similar scalings.

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 Post subject: Re: NEP Space Marine Formations and Stats
PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 5:49 pm 
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Hi guys, have we moved on any further? Looking forward to seeing where the project is currently at.


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 Post subject: Re: NEP Space Marine Formations and Stats
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 11:57 pm 
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It is plodding along slowly, I have recently moved jobs and don't have as much time free to get on the computer. Also had a few thoughts so changing a few things. Think this is going to end up being something I just work on on my own for those that want to use it as there seems to be some resistance to the flexible options, especially on the FB group.

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 Post subject: Re: NEP Space Marine Formations and Stats
PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 12:08 am 
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Mattman wrote:
It is plodding along slowly, I have recently moved jobs and don't have as much time free to get on the computer. Also had a few thoughts so changing a few things. Think this is going to end up being something I just work on on my own for those that want to use it as there seems to be some resistance to the flexible options, especially on the FB group.

Matt


Hi!

At this point I think its best treated as a private project with occasional asking for feedback, like Bissler with Evolution or me with some variant.

That means more freedom for you to work on it. :)

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 Post subject: Re: NEP Space Marine Formations and Stats
PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 3:55 am 
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If some people don't want to use an optional system, they don't have to. Don't let their negativity stop you from making it at all. There are plenty of us who do like flexible systems.

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 Post subject: Re: NEP Space Marine Formations and Stats
PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2015 1:13 pm 
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I thought this was a next gen project by the community for the community, the next step on from gold. It is sad to see that people are so resistant to change and unwilling to at least give it a try. Everyone is entitled to give feedback but it is your project and you should have the final call on the content. I was looking forward to seeing this project completed. Take all the time you need to make it the game you want to play mate and share it with those similar minded gamers.

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