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NEP Space Marine Formations and Stats

 Post subject: NEP Space Marine Formations and Stats
PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 2:48 am 
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It has finally arrived.
Attached is my first draft attempt at updating the Space Marine army list. I have introduced all the currently available options available to a marine player these days as based on the current 6th ed army list, the modern day fluff and Forge World additions. So there is a lot of information.
As per my plan, I have tried to set up the formations so they are flexible and can accommodate players with varying amounts of models from various eras across epic history.
New units have new stats, so please comment and let me know what you think of them. Currently there are no points cost associated with anything (that is next on the list), so hold off claiming if something is over powered until it has been through the costing formula, which should balance things out.
I have also updated some old units with newer stats where appropriate based on their current interpretation, again, let me know what you think.
As I have mentioned in previous comments, I have tried to limit AD on weapons were possible, and improved To Hit or TSM due to multiple, twin or quad linked weapons. I felt that was a better way of doing things rather than having weapons that had the potential of mowing down dozens of men in one go.

Some points of note.

As much as I have tried to accommodate new and old, some things have had to give to be true to the way things true to the setting. I have discussed some of these before, but the big ones are Jump Packs can no longer fit in Rhino size transports and Terminators (plus other troops) take up two capacity slots each. This is the way the 40k world works and how it has worked for 15+ years now.

I have ditched the @ barrage symbol. It is a confusing system when some barrage weapons in a list could be combined and some couldn't, so just decided to treat everyone as able to combine. I have proposed some updated rules for barrages in another post, so time will tell how these pan out and if the @ needs to come back.

Again, as I mentioned in another post, I have removed the template from small flamer type weapons. They are just treated as short range 1 or 2 AD weapons. Some of the larger flamer type weapons on vehicles have kept the template, but I am very much thinking about ditching those to in an effort to speed up and simplify things.

The formations and stats are in two separate documents below.

Attachment:
NEP Space Marine Formations 141105.doc [183.5 KiB]
Downloaded 380 times


Attachment:
NEP Space Marine Stats 141104.doc [227.5 KiB]
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Let me know what you think so far.

Matt


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 Post subject: Re: NEP Space Marine Formations and Stats
PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2014 8:57 pm 
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Hi!

First off...

HOORAY FOR MATTMAN!!!

It should come as no surprise my enthusiasm for NEP and my eagerness to finally get these done and start the process, so once more thanks to Mattman! ;D

STATS

Regarding the stats my first glance at them don't reveal anything that I would raise an immediate flag.

I like that options for certain characters are now given on foot as well as some kind of transport (bikes, etc).

As a note to others, I am NOT worried about anything being "too good", because we now have Magnus' formula to filter all these through. So unbalanced cost is less of an issue now.

I think we should look at the units more in the light if they are good at their intended role or if they are sufficiently differentiated from others in the same role.

Cost will be dealt with last, once an agreement for the elements stats and role are reached.

Question for Mattman: Did you use the summaries of "units not represented in net epic" as a guide for adding new elements to your formulations?

FORMATIONS

I chuckled somewhat at the formation overview on page 3 since this is exactly the format I used for my heresy rules. ;) So good job there. ;D

The formations to me look reasonable at first glance and allow a great degree of flexibility.

I particularly like how they could be easily ported into small cards for each company with all the options contained there in. It makes for easy reference and access.

Once more we need not worry about cost, as the formula rules for different formation types will be dealt with last as per Magnus' guidelines.

All in all, I am extremely pleased with the format. :)

Now that Mattman has posted these, I will now request the reorganization of the net epic forms.

I am STOCKED to get this going!!

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 Post subject: Re: NEP Space Marine Formations and Stats
PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2014 12:32 am 
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I did check through the summary of units, but had already noted most of them as I have been delving through the various 40k wikis and FW.
I plan on taking what magnus has done with with the points and tweaking it slightly as his formulas are based on a fixed number of models in a formation.

Thinking about moving onto orks next, will give people something to test marines against.


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 Post subject: Re: NEP Space Marine Formations and Stats
PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2014 12:35 am 
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Mattman wrote:
I did check through the summary of units, but had already noted most of them as I have been delving through the various 40k wikis and FW.
I plan on taking what magnus has done with with the points and tweaking it slightly as his formulas are based on a fixed number of models in a formation.

Thinking about moving onto orks next, will give people something to test marines against.


Hi!

By all means start pumping out army lists, so we can see them, comment, as well as test them. :)

I guess the only real modification to the formulas is to derive a "per element/model" cost depending on the formation we're talking about. I think it would be simple enough to come up with that.

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 Post subject: Re: NEP Space Marine Formations and Stats
PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2014 7:11 am 
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Mattman wrote:
I plan on taking what magnus has done with with the points and tweaking it slightly as his formulas are based on a fixed number of models in a formation.



Yes, and they have to be. Well, they have to be unless Break Point is predetermined at 50% (or whatever) for all possible formations. If Break Point is fixed as a predetermined value before the final number of models is decided on, then the points cost of the models can be determined ahead of time. If it is not, then the cost cannot be figured out ahead of the formation being finalized. Well, as far as I've been able to figure out anyway. If you can come up with a way to work around that, please let us know as soon as possible.

Morale, formation type, and Chain-of-Command modifiers can all be applied before the final formation size is determined. It's really just Break Point that prevents having model values known before the formation is finalized.

Having said that, I suppose one could have predetermined values for each model, and then apply a discount to the final formation cost based on the Break Point of that formation. The discount should be equal to the amount below 100% that the Break Point represents. As examples:
_ A formation with 1 model would have a BP of 1 and since this is 100% it receives no discount.
_ A formation with 4 models that has a BP of 2 receives a 50% discount, as 2 of 4 is 50%.
_ A formation with 3 models that has a BP of 2 receives a 33.33% discount, as 2 of 3 is 66%.
_ A formation with 5 models that has a BP of 3 receives a 40% discount, as 3 of 5 is 60%.

That would require a bit more math on the part of the end-user, but not as much as designing the formation cost from scratch.

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 Post subject: Re: NEP Space Marine Formations and Stats
PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2014 8:48 am 
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Just a thought, why not use this moment to REDUCE the number of choises? :)

Do we really need 15(!) different Dreadnoughts? Perhaps we now that we have a cost formula, we could perhaps just add chassie and weapon options then everybody could build there own bespoke variants?

Another question that I've been meaning to ask for some time, when did SM armour go from 6+ to 5+? Not the best of ideas IMHO.


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 Post subject: Re: NEP Space Marine Formations and Stats
PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2014 12:43 pm 
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Understand the dreadnoughts, there is a lot, that is all the variants we have models for and if you ignore the venerable versions, it the same amount we have in gold. But do we want to start building dreadnoughts like we do titans? We could, but then do we do the same for all the sponson options for vehicles.

I did originally not have a venerable version of each one and just had a single entry for it which was applied to a dreadnought and said it gains +1 save, +1 CAF and inspirational. Like wise had it with the bike, jump pack and terminator upgrades for characters, I could go back to that and would save a dozen entries.

Completely understand magnus, but there is nothing stopping us doing something different for Platinum as long as all the armies use the same costing system. If we have a base cost for a stand or vehicle, then we can work with it. I don't particularly want to have people applying 33% discounts after they have made a formation up to work out the final cost, I just want them to add everything up. How we get to that point I haven't figured out yet, but I will, and as I have said, as long as all the armies use the same system, it should be balanced.
Now if we want to push people to taking companies, then there is nothing stopping us reducing the cost per stand within the larger formation, for example, the 4 stands of a tactical detachment in a battle company might cost 100pts with additional ones at 25pts each, but as a separate stand alone support detachment, they might cost 120pts for the 4 and 30pts for the extra ones (those numbers were just examples, and plucked out of the air).

One other thing, Light Artillery as a descriptor should be scrapped. I have used the term Support Weapons in the marine list as half of the entries are not artillery. I think Support Weapon better describes a gun or other weapon crewed by a number of men. I also ditched the -3 CAF, it didn't seem right that a couple of marines would easily get taken down by a few grots :/ they still only have a CAF of 0 since there is only a couple of them compared to a combat squad.

I like the 5+ save on marines, it helps represent the power armour (in 40k saves went from 4+ to 3+ decades ago). Not sure when in the NetEpic process it was added, I am sure Primarch can fill us in.

Matt


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 Post subject: Re: NEP Space Marine Formations and Stats
PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2014 9:30 pm 
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As to Dreadnoughts (and by extension, any model at all) it would not be difficult to work up a list of costs for each part and allow people to build their own as is done in Car Wars, Mekton, or any of several other game systems. In fact it would probably be a good idea to do this, as the full formula could be a bit too complicated for many people. However, we should still have most of the pre-built models in the list to give choices for those who don't want to utilize either option.

I'll put making lists of such parts on my list of things to do. It really wouldn't be very difficult, just time consuming.

I think that Venerable should be an ability that can be added to any Dreadnought. Heck, we could allow it to be used on any model to simulate a "Veteran" of that type. This could simplify things.

We cannot do something different with Platinum, in reference to the formula. This is because the formula is intended to allow a level playing field for those people who want to mix editions. That is, a player with a Platinum army could pit their army against a player using the Gold rules, so long as the Gold player was using the Points Formula values, and still be a fair and balanced game. If you change the formula for Platinum and not for Gold, then this breaks. Thus any change to the formula for Platinum would have to be applied to Gold as well.

Still, if you can come up with a way around the Break Point issue without just ignoring it, and people like the new way, then we'll change the formula. It is still a work in progress.

Support Weapons sounds like a good term for them. Dropping the -3 to CAF will also solve the problem of many of these models having negative point cost values. Good thoughts.

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 Post subject: Re: NEP Space Marine Formations and Stats
PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2014 11:26 pm 
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Hi!

Could each element have cost listed as a series of numbers where each cost depends on the final formation number and break point?

For example a Land raider costs 100 (hypotheical), then list the cost after the slash that would correspond to a certain formation size.

By the way Mattman I wouldn't worry about a little math, since most people whom play table top wargames are used to army list costing schemes.

As an optional shortcut you can let players just do a flat 50% break point.

Magnus, what is "lost" balance-wise to assume a fixed break point number? Like 50% or more for that matter (tyranids come to mind).

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 Post subject: Re: NEP Space Marine Formations and Stats
PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 12:36 am 
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Not sure it would be feasible to list different costs for the number of models in a formation, the land raider company for example can have between 7 and 15 models in it, that would mean a lot of different cost points.
I know most people don't mind a bit of maths but I was hoping to stick with just adding things up.


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 Post subject: Re: NEP Space Marine Formations and Stats
PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 1:11 am 
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Version 0.1 DRAFT of a Veteran company layout. I understand they are still WIP but I wanted to have a go at it as it seemed quite overwhelming when I first looked at it. I think it works, it's a little prettier but isn't as efficient in space as yours for the final doc as each company takes a page. Hope this gives you something to work with and any changes you want let me know or if you just want to stay with the tabled versions that's fine. I added Jump pack for the HQ and Terminator for the Apothecary, didn't know if this was intentional or accidental either way let me know


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New Vet Coy v 0.1.jpg
New Vet Coy v 0.1.jpg [ 163.59 KiB | Viewed 3018 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: NEP Space Marine Formations and Stats
PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 1:41 am 
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Just looking at the Vehicle formations, would it not be easier to handle for a player to select a squadron of similar pattern vehicles other than buying individual vehicles, having 2-4 vehicles of a specific type in a squadron and then have different pattern squadrons. I understand why you are going this way, but I feel it is a little overly complex. In game it would be difficult to differentiate between mixed types and a lot of book keeping to track the casualties a Squadron has suffered. I feel it would be smoother gameplay wise to just say this is a Sqn of Whirlwind Scorpius's than this Squadron contains one Scorpius, one Hyperios and one Hunter. I think it wouldn't translate well to a game of this scale but will add another level of complexity that is not necessarily needed.


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 Post subject: Re: NEP Space Marine Formations and Stats
PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 3:06 am 
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That is a pretty good looking first go squiggle, nice one. I am sure we can play with the layout and sizes and get the formation to fit in half the page.
Regarding the mixing, that is definitely a possibility, I guess I just like the idea of mixed formations. If I did go down that route, I would still want the option of each detachment within a company to be different.


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 Post subject: Re: NEP Space Marine Formations and Stats
PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 4:33 am 
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Hi!

It occurred to me that instead of calculating the break point/cost, why not set a fixed break point per army?

We already know by fluff with armies should be more resilient and which less so.

For example the IG could be 50% break point, but less disciplined forces like pdf would be 40% or less. Thus they would be cheaper.

Squats would be at 55 or 60% and SM and Eldar at 60 to 65%.

Necrons could have a very high 75%.

The numbers are just examples, but you get the point. I think the formula could use a fixed break point per army, that way cost are easier to do.

Also this gives a different feel of resilience to each army.

Thoughts?

Great stuff Squiggle, this was the kind of thing I was wanting for NEP. :)

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 Post subject: Re: NEP Space Marine Formations and Stats
PostPosted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 9:37 am 
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Mattman wrote:
That is a pretty good looking first go squiggle, nice one. I am sure we can play with the layout and sizes and get the formation to fit in half the page.
Regarding the mixing, that is definitely a possibility, I guess I just like the idea of mixed formations. If I did go down that route, I would still want the option of each detachment within a company to be different.


Thanks, half a page? I'll have a go. I agree, different detachment types within a company.


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