Tactical Command
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Change to short range template weapons (flamers etc)
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=159&t=27764
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Author:  MagnusIlluminus [ Wed Jul 09, 2014 6:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Change to short range template weapons (flamers etc)

Yeah, I suppose that level of detail is a bit high for this scale.

Author:  Mattman [ Wed Jul 09, 2014 10:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Change to short range template weapons (flamers etc)

Okay, so a couple of thoughts regarding the flame template sizes.
First set assumes the current template is the largest available (6cm diameter end and 25cm long) and the others reduce in size by 5cm, with the width reducing proportionally.

Attachment:
Flame Temp 1.JPG
Flame Temp 1.JPG [ 49.46 KiB | Viewed 3083 times ]


These seem pretty good to me.

The other option would be to use the normal template as the middle one and go up/down in size from it. Again I went with a 5cm increase.

Attachment:
Flame Temp 2.JPG
Flame Temp 2.JPG [ 62.59 KiB | Viewed 3083 times ]


My concern with this option is that the large template may be to large, even for titan sized weapons.

Thoughts?

Matt

Author:  deanmon [ Thu Jul 10, 2014 12:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Change to short range template weapons (flamers etc)

I think both sets look great, I initially looked at set 1 and thought it was the best but you know titans are supposed to be the ultimate engines of destruction so the second set also works.

Author:  Bruticus [ Thu Jul 10, 2014 12:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Change to short range template weapons (flamers etc)

It might prove a barrier to entry if people have to print out the templates (especially since there will be printer scaling issues). Personally I'd rather be able to use the plastic templates from other games than have to make my own, although that's limiting things to just the one size of flame template I think.

In CE Necromunda a heavy flamer uses the standard 40k flamer template, but after it is placed it is moved forward X inches. The small flame template was removed and hand flamers use the standard template - although not everyone likes it, it's easier than trying to find more templates to use.

Or perhaps if it was sizes of template that could be bought elsewhere? I see there is a warmachine set.

Author:  Mattman [ Thu Jul 10, 2014 12:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Change to short range template weapons (flamers etc)

Using templates that are made by other manufacturers did cross my mind, will look into what is on the market and see what fits, or if the rules can be tweaked to what is out there. But people who have got into NetEpic Gold without having played 2nd edition will have had to create their own templates anyway, so it is nothing new.
Can understand why they would do something like that in Necromunda, but in epic, there are many magnitudes of differences between what a flamer carried by a dreadnought could engulf compared to one carried by a titan.

Author:  Mattman [ Thu Jul 10, 2014 1:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Change to short range template weapons (flamers etc)

Any who, there are plenty of games out there that make you print your templates.
What ever we decide to go with, I bet you could ask someone like Fenris to make up sets of them for sale.

Author:  Bruticus [ Thu Jul 10, 2014 1:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Change to short range template weapons (flamers etc)

Do people really print out their own templates? I would have thought most people that got into Gold would have found the templates on eBay or the like. There is a pretty big gulf between a handflamer and heavy flamer in Necro, yet they both use the same template. I wonder how other games do it? Maybe no other games have so significant a gulf in weapon size. The Necro compromise is not ideal, but I think there are advantages to being able to play with readily available, transparent plastic templates, and I know that I personally wouldn't want to be printing my own crappy paper templates.

E: yes a set from Fenris or somewhere would work OK, and maybe I am incorrect in assuming that most people that play epic would have the 40k flamer and blast templates at hand (I have a few and I swear I've never bought one, they just appear from no-where).

Author:  primarch [ Thu Jul 10, 2014 1:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Change to short range template weapons (flamers etc)

Hi!

I think making our own templates is less of a barrier then it once was. There are several companies that could make such markers for any specification.

Most printers print out cardstock, so I don't see making some for player to print out being to onerous.

That said, recommendations can be added for use of templates from other games as "close enough" for use as well.

I don't have any preference on the two sets mentioned by Mattman, they are an improvement over the old ones.

As for "flame points". I'd just mimic the BP table. Or just use the same one. It's a good "unified" model to follow and easy to remember. After all they are both templates, only the shape is the only real change.

All that would remain is to assign "FP's" to each unit.

Primarch

Author:  primarch [ Thu Jul 10, 2014 1:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Change to short range template weapons (flamers etc)

Bruticus wrote:
Do people really print out their own templates? I would have thought most people that got into Gold would have found the templates on eBay or the like. There is a pretty big gulf between a handflamer and heavy flamer in Necro, yet they both use the same template. I wonder how other games do it? Maybe no other games have so significant a gulf in weapon size. The Necro compromise is not ideal, but I think there are advantages to being able to play with readily available, transparent plastic templates, and I know that I personally wouldn't want to be printing my own crappy paper templates.

E: yes a set from Fenris or somewhere would work OK, and maybe I am incorrect in assuming that most people that play epic would have the 40k flamer and blast templates at hand (I have a few and I swear I've never bought one, they just appear from no-where).


Hi!

From my experience Bruticus, a lot of people do print out there own stuff. It generally cheaper than going on ebay and getting specific counters or templates. That is why the original gold books have them. That is what people asked for. :)

Granted, what I would do personally is have them made as transparent plastic templates. The options for this are cost effective and no so difficult as they one were. Plus they look cool! ;)

Primarch

Author:  Mattman [ Thu Jul 10, 2014 11:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Change to short range template weapons (flamers etc)

Another thought is to remove the tear drop template altogether and just use the round templates, it would simplify things. It depends how much people think the "tail" is important. Whenever I have used such weapons, the tail rarely has an impact (I might catch the odd model, but most of the targets are under the end).
So I was wondering about treating "spray" weapons in a similar way to barrages? Have all the models in the unit add their "Spray Points" (for want of a better term) together and choose a round template to shoot with. They way I envisage this is, all the models just firing and dosing a wide area with flame (or other material), with the stream not coming into the equation.

Matt

Author:  primarch [ Thu Jul 10, 2014 6:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Change to short range template weapons (flamers etc)

Hi!

The tail of the flamer template is more useful for targets "in a line", less useful otherwise.

I do like how they did the bio-titan pyro-acid spray template. That has a wider tail and more ample end.

Primarch

Author:  Hyuri [ Thu Aug 07, 2014 3:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Change to short range template weapons (flamers etc)

Hi!

There is a rule in W40k 6th and 7th edition called "Torrent". This rule allows to put the flamer template over 12 inches away from the shooter, representing big flamethrowers with increased range.

In practice, this rule eliminated the old three flamer templates (small, medium and big), homogenizing all the flamer kinda attacks and allowing the differences between a flamer and the Inferno Cannon mounted on a Hellhound, for example.

I think there should be only one flamer template, used to represent really big weapons (like Titan Weapons). If the weapon is a Macro Super Flamer, maybe it could have some "Torrent" rule.

The rest of the weapons should normal rules + ignore cover, for example.

Hyuri

Author:  primarch [ Thu Aug 07, 2014 6:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Change to short range template weapons (flamers etc)

Hyuri wrote:
Hi!

There is a rule in W40k 6th and 7th edition called "Torrent". This rule allows to put the flamer template over 12 inches away from the shooter, representing big flamethrowers with increased range.

In practice, this rule eliminated the old three flamer templates (small, medium and big), homogenizing all the flamer kinda attacks and allowing the differences between a flamer and the Inferno Cannon mounted on a Hellhound, for example.

I think there should be only one flamer template, used to represent really big weapons (like Titan Weapons). If the weapon is a Macro Super Flamer, maybe it could have some "Torrent" rule.

The rest of the weapons should normal rules + ignore cover, for example.

Hyuri


Hi!

That is an interesting idea. :)

We'll see what others input we get on this idea.

My re-certification exam is the 18th. Once that is done I'll be available full time to get Platinum on its way.

Primarch

Author:  Mattman [ Sat Aug 09, 2014 9:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Change to short range template weapons (flamers etc)

Hyuri wrote:

I think there should be only one flamer template, used to represent really big weapons (like Titan Weapons). If the weapon is a Macro Super Flamer, maybe it could have some "Torrent" rule.

The rest of the weapons should normal rules + ignore cover, for example.

Hyuri


That is the sort of rule I want to implement. Anything vehicle sized or smaller would just have a normal weapon, maybe a range of 15cm, one or two AD, to hit ranging from 3+ to 5+ depending on the weapon and Ignores Cover. No need to worry about templates and working out who is or isn't half under, it would speed things up slightly.

Matt

Author:  The Bissler [ Tue Jan 13, 2015 2:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Change to short range template weapons (flamers etc)

I hadn't looked at this thread for some time. I think Mattman's barrage idea is great and I like the idea of the different sized barrages.

My personal feeling is that it would be preferable for traditionalists using the existing formations not deal with the suggested chart at all although obviously for larger formations created through the new formations you would need something like this.

I'd like each unit to still have the same BPs and to hit rolls as before, only that in the notes it would say Barrage (x) which would indicate the size of template used. This could either be expressed in terms of cm - 6, 9 or 12 or given a name such as Standard, Large and Orky!

The flamer rules are interesting also and I do like the torrent idea. If I'm reading this correctly infantry would place the marker directly at their base (as normal), vehicles, walkers, skimmers perhaps +5cm on front of them and then lastly Titan flamers maybe +10cm in front of them? This seems workable.

Finally, I very much like the idea of the Net Epic community getting our own templates out there, that would be very pleasing! I think it would be great also to be able to tell new players "you can source these here". While I don't doubt that some people would print off their own templates from the books, I do think this would make it more accessible to a wider audience.

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