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Change to short range template weapons (flamers etc)

 Post subject: Change to short range template weapons (flamers etc)
PostPosted: Fri Jul 04, 2014 4:18 pm 
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As I was reviewing the marine stats for the updated army book I had a bit of a thought. I don't think single stands of models or single non-super heavy vehicles should use the template for flamer type weapons at this scale. For larger vehicles or titans which use heavy or titanic versions, I have no problem.
My reasoning is this; at 40k scale a normal flamer will typically hit 3-6 models, and maybe kill 3 or 4 using a similar style of attack in epic, you could typically hit 3-6 stands, which would represent killing off 15-30 men, which to me seems massively out of proportion.
So I am proposing that templates for the smaller scale weapons are done away with and the weapon is shot like any other, albeit with a short range (maybe 20cm), with 1 maybe 2 AD and still with the ability to ignore cover. I don’t think a shot from a small flamer type weapon should be able to take out more than a stand, maybe two at the most. The other bonus of this is by not using the template, it will speed up the game. The player doesn't have to worry about laying out the template, working out the best direction to get the most stands and then rolling. He can just choose a target like any other shot, measure and roll his dice.
This change shouldn't affect many units, maybe one or two in each list from the quick scan I did over the army books.
Amusingly though, something like this was partially implemented in the marine list. The Assault Marine Flamer and normal Flamer Marine have 25cm range weapons with 1 AD, 4+ to hit and ignore cover, whereas the Assault Dreadnaught which is also armed with a Flamer, uses the template :-\ And the Furioso and Venerable Dreadnaughts carry Heavy Flamers with 35cm range, 1AD, 4+ to hit, ignore cover, but the Predator Vulkan and Jaghati Khan which are also armed with Heavy Flamers, again use the template. :-\ :-\

So I proposing that we ditch the template for anything smaller than a super heavy (I have not problem with a titan roast half a dozen stands as his weapon would be big enough and carry enough fuel for such a thing) and move to using a number of attack dice with a short range (to be decided, somewhere from 20-35cm), as we seem to have implemented partially already. ::)

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 Post subject: Re: Change to short range template weapons (flamers etc)
PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 3:06 am 
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Interesting thought. Another alternative would be to switch these "lesser" Flamers over to the 'small teardrop' template from the 'large teardrop' one, and change any models currently using the small teardrop to being 1 to 2 attacks. It would simplify without entirely removing the use of the templates from the smaller models.

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 Post subject: Re: Change to short range template weapons (flamers etc)
PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 3:10 am 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
Interesting thought. Another alternative would be to switch these "lesser" Flamers over to the 'small teardrop' template from the 'large teardrop' one, and change any models currently using the small teardrop to being 1 to 2 attacks. It would simplify without entirely removing the use of the templates from the smaller models.


Hi!

I like this idea. I would rather keep templates, but smaller units like infantry should use the smaller templates and as you point out perhaps get to use them more than once per activation to make up for the shorter range.

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 Post subject: Re: Change to short range template weapons (flamers etc)
PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 3:17 pm 
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Fine for infantry but I'm not so keen for vehicles such as Hellhounds downgrading. It's their only purpose, they'd be pretty useless without them. Most of the time I use these units for cleansing wooded areas of enemy units. Being limited to the small teardrop could allow enemy units to hide in places that Hellhounds and the like cannot reach.

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 Post subject: Re: Change to short range template weapons (flamers etc)
PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 4:21 pm 
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The Bissler wrote:
Fine for infantry but I'm not so keen for vehicles such as Hellhounds downgrading. It's their only purpose, they'd be pretty useless without them. Most of the time I use these units for cleansing wooded areas of enemy units. Being limited to the small teardrop could allow enemy units to hide in places that Hellhounds and the like cannot reach.


Hi!

Agreed. Vehicles should use the larger template.

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 Post subject: Re: Change to short range template weapons (flamers etc)
PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 6:43 pm 
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Not a big fan of using the small template for small units/stands, seems a bit clunky. Things like Hellhounds would still be able to flush units out if we make sure they have a couple of AD, though why some vehicles use the template and some don't, seems odd.
If we want to keep the template for vehicles then we should think about introducing a larger one for titan size weapons. In Apocalypse the template for titan size flame weapons is twice the size of the standard one.


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 Post subject: Re: Change to short range template weapons (flamers etc)
PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 7:15 pm 
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Mattman wrote:
Not a big fan of using the small template for small units/stands, seems a bit clunky. Things like Hellhounds would still be able to flush units out if we make sure they have a couple of AD, though why some vehicles use the template and some don't, seems odd.
If we want to keep the template for vehicles then we should think about introducing a larger one for titan size weapons. In Apocalypse the template for titan size flame weapons is twice the size of the standard one.


Hi!

I very much agree that the size of the templates should be revisited and set sizes for infantry, vehicle and titan weapons should be made and the sizes should probably be larger than they are now.

Templates are flavorful and fun to use. I would hate to lose them. But I do agree fully that the current ones are inadequate and need to be remade.

In fact, I think the barrage ones should be modified as well. I think ALL templates should be 3 catergories:

Infantry sized (small)
Vehicle sized (medium,/default)
Titan sized (large)

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 Post subject: Re: Change to short range template weapons (flamers etc)
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 1:03 am 
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Was thinking something similar for the barrage template, but the size shouldn't be determined by what type it is, the size of the barrage will depend on the weapon that is being fired, some tanks can hit a massive area these days.


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 Post subject: Re: Change to short range template weapons (flamers etc)
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 1:54 am 
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Mattman wrote:
Was thinking something similar for the barrage template, but the size shouldn't be determined by what type it is, the size of the barrage will depend on the weapon that is being fired, some tanks can hit a massive area these days.


Hi!

Then a generic, small, medium and large should suffice.

Sizes need to be determined though.

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 Post subject: Re: Change to short range template weapons (flamers etc)
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 11:43 am 
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This is a step away from the original topic, but with regards to barrage templates, rather than concerning ourselves with weapon specifics, we let the players choose how wide a template they want to use based on the number of BPs the shot will have. Something like this maybe:

Attachment:
BP Templates.JPG
BP Templates.JPG [ 19.13 KiB | Viewed 2596 times ]


So a player can choose to widen the area of the template, but has to sacrifice accuracy.
Given that with the flexible formation sizes we could potentially see larger units of artillery, it would make use of all the extra BPs. Not to mention that some guard formations already start with over 10BPs, so it would give them a little boost.

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 Post subject: Re: Change to short range template weapons (flamers etc)
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 7:16 pm 
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That is an incredible idea. I really like that. The only downside to it that I see at the moment is putting a point cost to the weapon. At the moment, the base cost for a template weapon is determined by the size of the template used. This idea, while great for play, would mean reworking the base cost for template weapons. Frankly, I've been planning to do that anyway, as I'm not satisfied with how costly many weapons are coming out in the current system.

As to sizes, we actually already have three sizes of circular templates. As the 6cm is currently the 'standard' size, this should probably be the 'medium' and thus default. The current 12cm would obviously be the 'large'. For the small, we could use the 'Gutbuster Cannonball' template.

Personally, I don't see any need to change the sizes of the templates away from what is currently used. Aside perhaps from making a new teardrop template sized for use by Titans. That could be useful.

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 Post subject: Re: Change to short range template weapons (flamers etc)
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 7:22 pm 
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Hi!

That is a sweet idea Mattman! :)


Given that the size of artillery batteries will be varied, I think this is the kind of thing that need to be used.

Its fine to use the templates that already exist, although I think the "small" template needs some defining. The gutbuster ball template is too small to be useful.

The two flamer templates that exist are serviceable. Creating a larger titan scaled one would be sufficient. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Change to short range template weapons (flamers etc)
PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 11:11 pm 
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I don't think anything smaller than 6cm would be that useful.
I went with 12cm as the big as that is what is already in the rules for the titan rocket launcher, so made sense to make use of it and fit the medium one in between.
Points wise I guess you could work everything around the 9cm template as it is the middle one.
The small flamer type template has seemed a bit odd to me as it is short and dumpy, doesn't really fit in with the other one.


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 Post subject: Re: Change to short range template weapons (flamers etc)
PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 3:47 am 
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Mattman wrote:
I don't think anything smaller than 6cm would be that useful.
I went with 12cm as the big as that is what is already in the rules for the titan rocket launcher, so made sense to make use of it and fit the medium one in between.
Points wise I guess you could work everything around the 9cm template as it is the middle one.
The small flamer type template has seemed a bit odd to me as it is short and dumpy, doesn't really fit in with the other one.


Hi!

I would be okay with a 6cm, 9cm and 12cm templates (small, medium and large).

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 Post subject: Re: Change to short range template weapons (flamers etc)
PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2014 4:10 am 
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I like the idea of different sized flamer and barrage templates. Infantry definitely shouldn't be able to use the same flamer template.

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