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Space Marine New Formation Discussion

 Post subject: Space Marine New Formation Discussion
PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 5:44 pm 
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Most of you will be aware of the discussion about how best to arrange formations under the new platinum rules, all the details of which can be found here:

http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=146&t=27149

Since I am working with marines to start with I thought I would throw out a few early layouts and see what peoples thoughts are. I think there are two ways of doing this and it depends on how far down the rabbit hole people want to go when it comes to building their armies.

So first up I will be starting with a Battle Company and give a background on how they are expected to be arranged in the world of 40k.

Each company has roughly 100 Space Marines plus support staff (except the Scout Company which has no pre-determined number of warriors or squads).

Battle Companies have 6 10-man Tactical Squads, 2 10-man Assault Squads, and 2 10-man Devastator Squads.
The Devastator Squads can be deployed as Devastator Marines or Centurions.
The Assault Squads can be deployed as Assault Marines, Centurions, Bike Squadrons or Land Speeder Squadrons.
All the squads often use Rhino or Razorback transports. Each of the main Battle Companies have four Dreadnoughts available to them.

So at its basic level a Battle Company Formation I would expect to look something like this:


Attachment:
BC New Formation.JPG
BC New Formation.JPG [ 70.32 KiB | Viewed 1522 times ]



This keeps everything everything simple, but forgoes the various options the Devastator and Assault marines have.

If we want to have a true representation of the options available for a Battle Company, then we should be looking at something like this.

Attachment:
BC New Formation Alt.JPG
BC New Formation Alt.JPG [ 135.77 KiB | Viewed 1519 times ]


Obviously there is a lot there to work out to get to the final points tally of your company, but it is more true to the fluff since the 20 Assault and Devastator marines have several deployment options available to them. It also means you have to take a lot of bikes or land speeders if you don't go for an Assault detachment as 2 stands of Assault marines equals 5 bike or speeder stands given the normal basing convention of 2 bikes or 1 speeder to a base.
Centurions are a bit up in the air at the moment (since we don't have any models) but they normally roam around in groups of 3, so 6 stands of 3 is close enough to the 20 men you have in the Devastator detachment. That isn't to say we shouldn't form them like terminators (though they are slightly bigger) and stick with 5 on a stand, but then fluff demon in me doesn't like that as it would imply 5 could ride in a land raider and 40k rules only allow 3 to fit :-\

And just for completeness, here is how the traditional Battle Company would look in the new set up:

Attachment:
BC Classic Formation.JPG
BC Classic Formation.JPG [ 69.55 KiB | Viewed 1522 times ]


As much as I want the Battle Company with all the options, I just think it would be to much and think the simple version is the best route to go, with bikes, speeders and the rest just taken as support.

Thoughts?

Matt


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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine New Formation Discussion
PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 7:13 pm 
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Hi!

I think the simple route is the best one.

While the format to list the formation will be hammered out in time, I think keeping the simple form, with perhaps adding the "per model" price somewhere in there players can tailor any non-standard formation they choose to make.

In summary the default listing should be a simple formations "table" like your example and a second that defaults to the "traditional" formations for "quick play".

The inclusion of the "per model cost" will let players modify the basic formation into any form their collections permit.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine New Formation Discussion
PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 11:26 pm 
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Or something like this would give people true flexibility:

Attachment:
BC New Formation Variable.JPG
BC New Formation Variable.JPG [ 82.43 KiB | Viewed 1493 times ]


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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine New Formation Discussion
PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 11:31 pm 
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Hi!

Nice! This is exactly how I envisioning it. :)

You know what is funny Mattman? It is looking a lot like 1st edition TOE's which were expressed exactly like this. With companies defined as (0-x number of stands) and options for support offered as well.

I'm really liking this. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine New Formation Discussion
PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 9:16 am 
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Cool. I guess the other question is should the detachments have a minimum size, since no one should be playing with a marine detachment with less than 4 stands and do we limit the max to 6, maybe allow 8. So:

Battle Company
Marine HQ Stand
1 Tactical Detachment
4-8 Stands
0-1 Tactical Detachment
0-8 Stands
1 Devastator Detachment
4-8 Stands
1 Assault Detachment
4-8 Stands

Veterans were a little more interesting and simple to do since they are just meant to be a fully flexible force.

Veteran Company Command
1 Veteran Marine HQ Stand
Or
1 Terminator Marine HQ Stand
3-5 Detachments from the list below
Sternguard Veteran Detachment
4-6 Sternguard Stands
Vanguard Veteran Detachment
4-6 Vanguard Stands
Terminator Detachment
4-6 Terminator Stands
Assault Terminator Detachment
4-6 Assault Terminator Stands

This one company allows you to build a vet company or terminator company, or mix them up together. This would replace both the vets and terminator company formations in the list as all the men come from the same source, so you shouldn't be able to field both companies in a game.
Again, we could go up to 8 max.
Funnily enough, the arrangement above allows a player to make the Salamanders 1st company as they are 120 men strong rather than the normal 100.

As much as I want to try to and arrange everything in line with how things are set up in the Codex rules and the fluff, I guess in the end we give the players as much flexibility as they want and leave it up to them to build their companies in line with the fluff if they want, if they abuse the system, then it is their choice.

Matt


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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine New Formation Discussion
PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 3:40 pm 
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Hi!

You could include "minimum quantities" of certain units sure. I can include a statement somewhere that you could make them smaller if your collection doesn't allow larger formations as an alternate/optional method of formation construction, but it would not be the default method.

That's why I mentioned including the "per model" cost. That way players can make very small formation to accommodate what they have, but that doesn't mean we can set the default at certain minimums or "maximums" for that matter.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine New Formation Discussion
PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 3:56 pm 
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I don't think I would want to allow detachments to have less than 4 stands as you open up the door for allowing the burning of activations through multiple small detachments (as we have discussed with command units). I can't believe there would be many people that can't field 4 of a particular unit, but the single point cost will be next to each formation, so if people have to, they can reduce the size, I just wouldn't promote it as the norm. 4-8 seems a reasonable range to capture most peoples collection (plan on doing vehicle detachments as 2-6 strong).

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine New Formation Discussion
PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 6:06 pm 
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Mattman wrote:
I don't think I would want to allow detachments to have less than 4 stands as you open up the door for allowing the burning of activations through multiple small detachments (as we have discussed with command units). I can't believe there would be many people that can't field 4 of a particular unit, but the single point cost will be next to each formation, so if people have to, they can reduce the size, I just wouldn't promote it as the norm. 4-8 seems a reasonable range to capture most peoples collection (plan on doing vehicle detachments as 2-6 strong).

Matt


Hi!

True, at last I would never make them that small. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine New Formation Discussion
PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 2:57 am 
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On that note, it would probably be good to have a listed "Minimum number of models for a formation" below which number the formation cannot qualify as a formation for NetEpic. Having such a number listed would save having to have minimum sizes per detachment, and the number could vary by pinning class. For example: (not intended as final values, just for demonstration)

Minimum formation sizes:
Infantry / Light Artillery: minimum of 3 to count as a Support, minimum of 9 to count as a Company
Cavalry: 5 for Support, 10 for Company
Walker: 3 for Support, 9 for Company
Vehicle: Support: 2, Company: 6 (does not include vehicles used primarily as Transports for Infantry in a formation along with said Infantry)
Knight: Support: 2, Company: 6
Super Heavy / Praetorian / Titan: Support: 1, Company: 3
Mega-Titan: Support: -- (not allowed), Company: 1

These values could vary slightly from one Faction to another, but should stay relatively the same to maintain the feel of massive armies clashing with each other, and to avoid "gaming the activations". If a person just doesn't have enough models of a thing to make a Company, they should either find something to fill in, make a mixed Company (like the Battle Company above), or just deal with it and make a Support formation instead.

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 Post subject: Re: Space Marine New Formation Discussion
PostPosted: Sun Jul 06, 2014 3:08 am 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
On that note, it would probably be good to have a listed "Minimum number of models for a formation" below which number the formation cannot qualify as a formation for NetEpic. Having such a number listed would save having to have minimum sizes per detachment, and the number could vary by pinning class. For example: (not intended as final values, just for demonstration)

Minimum formation sizes:
Infantry / Light Artillery: minimum of 3 to count as a Support, minimum of 9 to count as a Company
Cavalry: 5 for Support, 10 for Company
Walker: 3 for Support, 9 for Company
Vehicle: Support: 2, Company: 6 (does not include vehicles used primarily as Transports for Infantry in a formation along with said Infantry)
Knight: Support: 2, Company: 6
Super Heavy / Praetorian / Titan: Support: 1, Company: 3
Mega-Titan: Support: -- (not allowed), Company: 1

These values could vary slightly from one Faction to another, but should stay relatively the same to maintain the feel of massive armies clashing with each other, and to avoid "gaming the activations". If a person just doesn't have enough models of a thing to make a Company, they should either find something to fill in, make a mixed Company (like the Battle Company above), or just deal with it and make a Support formation instead.


Hi!

I agree that certain minimums for formation types should be laid down.

Good call!

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