Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 27 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

Platinum General Discussions

 Post subject: Re: Platinum General Discussions
PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2015 6:06 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am
Posts: 27034
Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA
Hi!

Platinum should allow a greaater flexibility in army composition, mainly trying to make it easier for players to use what they have instead of the traditional formation which are quite large and with models being harder to come by.

Primarch

_________________
Primarch


The Primarchload
Magnetized Titans Tutorial
Net Epic Gold
Heresy Rules


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Platinum General Discussions
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 5:52 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2014 9:55 pm
Posts: 13
I would agree with this, but would say that it should still be based off formation cards - they are one of the things I love - the physical ordering of my army on cards.


On another note - Shooting vs Assault.

A Land Raider company, with it's PD and decent CAF vs 5+ to hit on shooting, is better off in assault than shooting. Tactical Marines are a much less useful unit than assault marines, due to the effectiveness of assault. I wonder if there isn't a way of rebalancing assault vs shooting in a game predominantly about tanks and big guns? Just something simple, like making most to hit rolls in shooting a bit better? I'm not sure assault could be easily changed without drastically reducing it's effectiveness, but a little thing like adding rules like 40k's twin-linked, or some other way to make shooting slightly more effective. Barrage is another good example - Yes, you can 'place' the template, but the to hit rolls are often poor, even with a full squadron of something like whilrwinds?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Platinum General Discussions
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2015 1:14 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am
Posts: 27034
Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA
Nedius wrote:
I would agree with this, but would say that it should still be based off formation cards - they are one of the things I love - the physical ordering of my army on cards.


On another note - Shooting vs Assault.

A Land Raider company, with it's PD and decent CAF vs 5+ to hit on shooting, is better off in assault than shooting. Tactical Marines are a much less useful unit than assault marines, due to the effectiveness of assault. I wonder if there isn't a way of rebalancing assault vs shooting in a game predominantly about tanks and big guns? Just something simple, like making most to hit rolls in shooting a bit better? I'm not sure assault could be easily changed without drastically reducing it's effectiveness, but a little thing like adding rules like 40k's twin-linked, or some other way to make shooting slightly more effective. Barrage is another good example - Yes, you can 'place' the template, but the to hit rolls are often poor, even with a full squadron of something like whilrwinds?


Hi!

I hear ya loud and clear!

I will also say that this will be all but impossible given that most net epic players don't like changing things much.

While Platinum seems to concentrate on making force building easier, I don't think you'll see major rule changes in the way certain things are done mechanics wise.

that said I'm working on my own project, another variant if you will, in which I have overhauled close combat quite a bit to make it more decisive than it is now.

I guess this is a long winded way to say that if you want some tweaking of the rules, your probably going to have to make some for your own games an group.

Or wait until I finish my project and see if my musings suit you. ;)

Primarch

_________________
Primarch


The Primarchload
Magnetized Titans Tutorial
Net Epic Gold
Heresy Rules


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Platinum General Discussions
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2015 3:58 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2012 5:34 pm
Posts: 3111
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
Net Epic Evolution may be of interest to you from the shooting aspect.

Under that system if you are on FF orders you get a +1 on your rolls to hit...but it's a double edged sword and as you are static, enemy units get a +1 on their rolls to hit you (after you have revealed your order). This is cumulative so if you were on FF and fired at a unit who had fired on FF before you, you'd have a massive +2 to your roll! This has the effect both of speeding play up as it is easier to hit, but also giving players a tactical dilemma; reveal your FF too quickly in the turn and your unit will be under fire from every enemy nearby, leave it too late and your unit may not be alive to fire!

I should mention that in Evolution you order as you activate and you move and fire so FF and Advance segments don't exist. If you prefer units were ordered before activations you could do your own house rule and play it that way but I've found that ordering as you activate makes for more fluid and exciting play.

Also, while the CC system is much the same, when units draw in CC, the combat does not roll over into the next turn. Instead players roll again until someone not only wins a combat but also destroys the enemy. In the rare situation where there is Titan v Titan combat this would mean players would likely fight several rounds of combat in the one turn until one Titan is destroyed!


Apologies to all for thread jacking to promote my own system!

_________________
Proud to be described by CyberShadow as Tactical Command's "...biggest threat in recent times..."!

Clickable links for Epic hijinks:
Epic 40K Players Page on Facebook
Net Epic Evolution Rules
Net Epic War! Campaign Rules


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Platinum General Discussions
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2015 4:29 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am
Posts: 27034
Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA
Hi!

Variety is the spice of life. No will be no shortage of this amongst net epic players. ;)

Primarch

_________________
Primarch


The Primarchload
Magnetized Titans Tutorial
Net Epic Gold
Heresy Rules


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Platinum General Discussions
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 7:51 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 12:16 am
Posts: 1003
The way I am working on things, the army lists will still maintain an essence of the card system, but it will be more like building your own army card.
I have considered improving some weapons and making others worse (land speeders a prime example), but have tried to maintain the core of what we have and basing other weapon systems off the baseline that a twin linked lascannon is 1 AD, 5+ to hit and -2 TSM.
A lot of the issues with NetEpic and 2nd Ed come back to the points system, a lot of things are either over or undercosted which means certain units miss out.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Platinum General Discussions
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:10 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am
Posts: 27034
Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA
Mattman wrote:
The way I am working on things, the army lists will still maintain an essence of the card system, but it will be more like building your own army card.
I have considered improving some weapons and making others worse (land speeders a prime example), but have tried to maintain the core of what we have and basing other weapon systems off the baseline that a twin linked lascannon is 1 AD, 5+ to hit and -2 TSM.
A lot of the issues with NetEpic and 2nd Ed come back to the points system, a lot of things are either over or undercosted which means certain units miss out.


Hi!

The point system IS the problem. It just doesn't work. Which is why any variant version of epic needs one done in the same vein Magnus did the one for Gold.

My top lists of offenders are:

1) ranges
2) point system
3) movement range

I think any version should address those and the rest takes care of itself.

Primarch

_________________
Primarch


The Primarchload
Magnetized Titans Tutorial
Net Epic Gold
Heresy Rules


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Platinum General Discussions
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:22 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2012 5:34 pm
Posts: 3111
Location: Glasgow, Scotland
If Magnus' points system works I don't see any need to do anything else about that. It would be a case of modifying the costings based on changes to weapons ranges and movement rates (which I know would be a fair amount of work, and probably because of my maths-hating brain not work that I'd be up to).

_________________
Proud to be described by CyberShadow as Tactical Command's "...biggest threat in recent times..."!

Clickable links for Epic hijinks:
Epic 40K Players Page on Facebook
Net Epic Evolution Rules
Net Epic War! Campaign Rules


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Platinum General Discussions
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:51 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 6:50 pm
Posts: 1469
primarch wrote:
Mattman wrote:
...A lot of the issues with NetEpic and 2nd Ed come back to the points system, a lot of things are either over or undercosted which means certain units miss out.


Hi!

The point system IS the problem. It just doesn't work. Which is why any variant version of epic needs one done in the same vein Magnus did the one for Gold.

My top lists of offenders are:

1) ranges
2) point system
3) movement range

I think any version should address those and the rest takes care of itself.

Primarch


Er, wait, what?

The Points Formula was built specifically to be used with both Gold AND Platinum. Unless Platinum is changing the base stats that models have or how they work in the game (which I was under the impression that it was not doing) then the existing formula *should* work fine for Platinum as well. It has in fact already been applied to an early version of Marines for Platinum and had a few tweaks made to deal with issues that came up therein.

It was also my understanding that Platinum was going to exclusively use the Points Formula and NOT have arbitrarily set values for formations to avoid exactly the problems described above. Therefore, at least in regards to Platinum, there is no "points system" that is a problem because the Points Formula is the solution.

So to address Primarch's offenders:

1) Presumably you mean Weapon Ranges. If a weapon's range is wrong, change it. It's value in the formula will change in proportion. I built the costs for Weapon Range specifically to allow for more granularity than is currently used in NetEpic, so this should not be a problem. The Points Formula somewhat assumes minimum increments of 5cm, but one can always go further if you don't mind more math. I would not recommend going deeper than 1cm just for measuring issues.

2) The Points Formula solves this.

3) Again, the Points Formula allows for more granularity than is currently used, so this should not be an issue either, aside from the issue of changing model stats that players like. As above for minimum increments.

In other words, I'm confused as to why this is being discussed. The Points Formula was to be used for Platinum, thus saying that any "points system" for Platinum is a problem is very confusing.

_________________
Net Epic Coordinator


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Platinum General Discussions
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:21 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am
Posts: 27034
Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA
MagnusIlluminus wrote:
primarch wrote:
Mattman wrote:
...A lot of the issues with NetEpic and 2nd Ed come back to the points system, a lot of things are either over or undercosted which means certain units miss out.


Hi!

The point system IS the problem. It just doesn't work. Which is why any variant version of epic needs one done in the same vein Magnus did the one for Gold.

My top lists of offenders are:

1) ranges
2) point system
3) movement range

I think any version should address those and the rest takes care of itself.

Primarch


Er, wait, what?

The Points Formula was built specifically to be used with both Gold AND Platinum. Unless Platinum is changing the base stats that models have or how they work in the game (which I was under the impression that it was not doing) then the existing formula *should* work fine for Platinum as well. It has in fact already been applied to an early version of Marines for Platinum and had a few tweaks made to deal with issues that came up therein.

It was also my understanding that Platinum was going to exclusively use the Points Formula and NOT have arbitrarily set values for formations to avoid exactly the problems described above. Therefore, at least in regards to Platinum, there is no "points system" that is a problem because the Points Formula is the solution.

So to address Primarch's offenders:

1) Presumably you mean Weapon Ranges. If a weapon's range is wrong, change it. It's value in the formula will change in proportion. I built the costs for Weapon Range specifically to allow for more granularity than is currently used in NetEpic, so this should not be a problem. The Points Formula somewhat assumes minimum increments of 5cm, but one can always go further if you don't mind more math. I would not recommend going deeper than 1cm just for measuring issues.

2) The Points Formula solves this.

3) Again, the Points Formula allows for more granularity than is currently used, so this should not be an issue either, aside from the issue of changing model stats that players like. As above for minimum increments.

In other words, I'm confused as to why this is being discussed. The Points Formula was to be used for Platinum, thus saying that any "points system" for Platinum is a problem is very confusing.


Hi!

When we say points system Magnus, we mean GW's original system (which is really no system), not yours. A lot of people accept the old points values as gospel when there is no real objectivity behind them. So when I say that what I mean there needs to be something in place like what you did. :)

And yes, your points system address the other two points.

It gets confusing because the conversation (mainly between me and Bissler) has carried over from Facebook and several threads. So what I listed are what I perceive to be the faults of Gold (of second edition in general) and I think the stock game could be improved just be changing those specific stats AND ONLY applying costs based on your formula.

Hopefully that makes things clearer. :)

Primarch

_________________
Primarch


The Primarchload
Magnetized Titans Tutorial
Net Epic Gold
Heresy Rules


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Platinum General Discussions
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:24 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:46 am
Posts: 27034
Location: Edmond, Oklahoma USA
The Bissler wrote:
If Magnus' points system works I don't see any need to do anything else about that. It would be a case of modifying the costings based on changes to weapons ranges and movement rates (which I know would be a fair amount of work, and probably because of my maths-hating brain not work that I'd be up to).


Hi!

Apparently I wasn't too clear. What I posted were criticisms to the original system and net epic as it stands now. I was referring to GW's costing system, which stinks. ;)

I would think that either evolution, platinum or what have you should use Magnus' formula and totally ditch the old points scheme.

As to what I'm working on, no worries, that doesn't relate to Magnus' formula since it has some basic changes in the probability.

Primarch

_________________
Primarch


The Primarchload
Magnetized Titans Tutorial
Net Epic Gold
Heresy Rules


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Platinum General Discussions
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:25 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 6:50 pm
Posts: 1469
Much clearer. It did not help that you were talking about Gold systems (without specifying that) in a Platinum thread. I did not catch the context shift.

_________________
Net Epic Coordinator


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 27 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net