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Points Formula and Net Epic Evolution

 Post subject: Points Formula and Net Epic Evolution
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 7:50 am 
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This thread is for discussing the impact of the points formula on Net Epic Evolution.

So far the only concern I have with the new points formula is the number of activations; the IG in particular have a lot of cheap units which means they can flood the battlefield with activations and gain significant tactical advantage as a result.

Orks and Squats have very few activations for differing reasons - with the Orks I am giving consideration to breaking their central mobs into 3 units of 5 rather than 1 unit of 15.

The one fix I am considering for the Squats is that they have better tactical insight than other forces so have the option to alternate actions with the enemy (as is the case at the moment) but that they also have the option to move every second activation if they wish. In other words, an enemy force may be obliged to move two activations for every one the Squats make at the Squat player's discretion. Playtesting would be required for this.

Possibly giving the Squats this power in a more limited form may be more desirable; the big issue for them is Turn 1 rather than subsequent turns when the battle is in full flow. It could be limited as such - or perhaps in turn 1 only the Squats get D6 activation passes to represent their tactical genius?

In any event, these observations arose before tweak 4.0 which I think may well improve many of the issues I was having. I'm looking to play a few games of that before imposing any potential fixes to the system. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula and Net Epic Evolution
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 10:20 am 
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Yeah, been racking my brain on this a bit since we started with the Points Formula, i think your ideas could work, and the other options i came up with are;

1. Compare activation counts pre-game - for every 5 activations difference the player with the lower count is awarded 10% extra points to spend until the difference is <5?

Pros - brings the activation count to a close balance.
cons - difficult to manage unless there is a good bit of pre-game conversation. could be abused (in a 5000pt game for example the weaker player could simple buy another titan or something, rather than cheap units!)

2. Asymmetrical victory conditions - Tie activation count and VPs to create a varying goal for each of the players (10% or 5%?).
something like - reduce the VP condition for the player with the lower Activations by the difference.
e.g. in a 5000pt game with player A having 30 activations vs Player B having 39 it would be
50 VPs for Player B, and 41 for Player A

Pros - potentially balances things a bit? easy enough to work out pre-game.
Cons - Might stagnate games (players with lots of cheap units wary to sacrifice them due to their effectively higher VP yield to the opposition) - could be open to abuse again.

3. Break/Change the formation rules - A bit more drastic than the ones above, and currently being discussed elsewhere. rather than using the traditional SM2/NE:G army card structure we could change this out for 'build your own' based on a frame work, in the style of AT/SM1, Flames of War, Epic 40k etc.
This might balance by having activation at the 'formation/platoon/company' level, rather than detachment.

E.g. both sides have the same points value to choose, but also have a formation limit (say 10 for 5k for the sake of example) meaning both get the same number of activations (although the number of individual units in these formations could vary greatly - there might need to be lower/upper limit in terms of points/units in each)

these 10 formations are activated back and forth - the players therefor make the choice of how much they want to put in each (this would affect the BP/VP, coherency etc... for the formation)

a player could choose to have a unit of 6 scout stands as 1 of the 10 formations, and in another could have an entire battle company - each would be 1 of the 10 activations.

Pros - shakes up the game, could be interesting! balances the number of activations per turn to 1:1 (until whole formations are destroyed!)
Cons - Not really part of this discussion, difficult to implement - not going to happen in the short term!

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula and Net Epic Evolution
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 12:42 pm 
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All really good suggestions! My thoughts:

1) Compare activation counts: I think the idea is good but as you point out there are problems with the practicalities. I wouldn't imagine many players being keen on discussing their army activations pre-game as it could give away information about their army composition.

2) Asymmetrical Victory Conditions: I've had experience of playing such games, specifically pitting a larger force against a smaller one and they didn't work that well. The smaller force tends to sit deep on FF orders & invite the larger force on to them. Not great but those games were usually fought with forces varying by at least 1K. It might work better if we were only talking about a 500 point difference. Worth thinking about. Though!

3) Change formation rules: I think this would be the best option! It sounds like this is what Magnus is working on so we could see what he comes up with.

Another suggestion would be to set limits for activations per 1,000 points. I don't know what figure to put on this but off the top of my head maybe a maximum of 6 activations? We'd need to analyse the armies more but in theory this might not be a bad thing because it would hopefully have the effect of having players bringing armies that have some mix of large and small units, making for a more balanced battle...

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula and Net Epic Evolution
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 4:35 pm 
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While I am working on suggestion 3 as mentioned above, I would suggest another option, at least for the short-term.

4) Determine Activation ratio. When the armies to be used for a battle are revealed, the activation counts that each provides are compared to determine the activation ratio. The activation ratio is determined by dividing the higher number by the lower number. For example, if one army provides 20 activations and the second provides 10, then the first player must activate two (20 / 10 = 2) formations in between each activation of the second player. If the counts were 20 and 5, then the ratio (20 / 5 = 4) would be 4 to 1. Round to the nearest whole number. However, to keep things more fair, whoever acts first only activates a single formation.
_ As an additional option, this ratio could be fixed at the beginning of the battle, or it could change from turn to turn as the overall number of activations changes. Either way has unique tactical situations.

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula and Net Epic Evolution
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 5:27 pm 
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That seems like a good idea also Magnus! I would run it that you work it out before the start of the battle and leave it that way as no one will want extra bookkeeping.

I'm also thinking that it should be at the player with the fewest activations discretion whether they will want to make use of the activation pass(es). It is definitely desirable in turn 1 as forces are deployed, less so in turn 2 onwards.

Just to clarify why I say this, in Turn 1 all units start hidden by the fog of war. As they activate they are revealed one by one. If one force has a significantly larger number of activations, they can force the player to deploy everything and then react with to their deployment with remaining units. In turn 2 both players will want to exchange fire as quickly as possible. If the "pass" was mandatory you could have the situation where the player with largest activation count fires all of his most powerful units immediately causing massive damage before the other player can respond.

Hope this makes sense!

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula and Net Epic Evolution
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 8:37 pm 
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Craigm999 wrote:
Yeah, been racking my brain on this a bit since we started with the Points Formula, i think your ideas could work, and the other options i came up with are;

1. Compare activation counts pre-game - for every 5 activations difference the player with the lower count is awarded 10% extra points to spend until the difference is <5?

Pros - brings the activation count to a close balance.
cons - difficult to manage unless there is a good bit of pre-game conversation. could be abused (in a 5000pt game for example the weaker player could simple buy another titan or something, rather than cheap units!)

2. Asymmetrical victory conditions - Tie activation count and VPs to create a varying goal for each of the players (10% or 5%?).
something like - reduce the VP condition for the player with the lower Activations by the difference.
e.g. in a 5000pt game with player A having 30 activations vs Player B having 39 it would be
50 VPs for Player B, and 41 for Player A

Pros - potentially balances things a bit? easy enough to work out pre-game.
Cons - Might stagnate games (players with lots of cheap units wary to sacrifice them due to their effectively higher VP yield to the opposition) - could be open to abuse again.

3. Break/Change the formation rules - A bit more drastic than the ones above, and currently being discussed elsewhere. rather than using the traditional SM2/NE:G army card structure we could change this out for 'build your own' based on a frame work, in the style of AT/SM1, Flames of War, Epic 40k etc.
This might balance by having activation at the 'formation/platoon/company' level, rather than detachment.

E.g. both sides have the same points value to choose, but also have a formation limit (say 10 for 5k for the sake of example) meaning both get the same number of activations (although the number of individual units in these formations could vary greatly - there might need to be lower/upper limit in terms of points/units in each)

these 10 formations are activated back and forth - the players therefor make the choice of how much they want to put in each (this would affect the BP/VP, coherency etc... for the formation)

a player could choose to have a unit of 6 scout stands as 1 of the 10 formations, and in another could have an entire battle company - each would be 1 of the 10 activations.

Pros - shakes up the game, could be interesting! balances the number of activations per turn to 1:1 (until whole formations are destroyed!)
Cons - Not really part of this discussion, difficult to implement - not going to happen in the short term!


Hi!

Number 3 is the way to go Bissler. This is what Magnus and I proposed to accomplish.

Its the only real definite solution, since most others tend to be stop gap measures that don't truly solve the problem.

Heck Bissler, since you seem to get enough games in, would you like me to give you those projected organization charts for those armies you use the most and you can test them yourself?

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula and Net Epic Evolution
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 8:40 pm 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
While I am working on suggestion 3 as mentioned above, I would suggest another option, at least for the short-term.

4) Determine Activation ratio. When the armies to be used for a battle are revealed, the activation counts that each provides are compared to determine the activation ratio. The activation ratio is determined by dividing the higher number by the lower number. For example, if one army provides 20 activations and the second provides 10, then the first player must activate two (20 / 10 = 2) formations in between each activation of the second player. If the counts were 20 and 5, then the ratio (20 / 5 = 4) would be 4 to 1. Round to the nearest whole number. However, to keep things more fair, whoever acts first only activates a single formation.
_ As an additional option, this ratio could be fixed at the beginning of the battle, or it could change from turn to turn as the overall number of activations changes. Either way has unique tactical situations.


Hi!

This could serve as a temporary measure, but number three is IMO the "real' solution.

Hmm. Perhaps I should start putting projected organizational charts to paper. Maybe some (like Bissler) can test them. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula and Net Epic Evolution
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 8:54 pm 
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Yes, I'd be keen to see the proposals for the new formations and absolutely would be happy to test them out. In fact, I'm optimistic that it could work better than existing formations do for Evolution so count me in when it has been put together! :)

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula and Net Epic Evolution
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 9:24 pm 
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The Bissler wrote:
Yes, I'd be keen to see the proposals for the new formations and absolutely would be happy to test them out. In fact, I'm optimistic that it could work better than existing formations do for Evolution so count me in when it has been put together! :)


Hi!

I definitely agree that they would serve EVO better than the stock Gold formations. :)

Which armies besides IG would you prefer?

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula and Net Epic Evolution
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 9:54 pm 
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The armies I have are Marines, IG, Orks, Khorne, Eldar and Squats.

Probably the Squats or Orks would be good as well as the IG. If those delivered a balanced game we'd know quickly if this is going to work. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula and Net Epic Evolution
PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2015 10:23 pm 
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The Bissler wrote:
The armies I have are Marines, IG, Orks, Khorne, Eldar and Squats.

Probably the Squats or Orks would be good as well as the IG. If those delivered a balanced game we'd know quickly if this is going to work. :)


Hi!

I'll start with IG and work from there. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula and Net Epic Evolution
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 2:50 pm 
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I've come up with a fix for the activation disparities that avoids special rules for particular armies.

For every 5 activations that one player's force outnumbers the other (rounded down) the opposing player gets 2D3 'passes' per turn.

Only one 'pass' can be played at a time, meaning that the opposing player is forced to move a maximum of 2 activations in any one go. Note that the player with the passes is not obliged to use them if he does not wish to.

Example: An IG force has a total of 22 activations against an Ork force which only has 10 activations. The IG have 12 activations more than the Orks, meaning that the Ork player will receive 2 lots of 2D3 passes each turn. The Ork player rolls a total of 9 passes and he gets these each turn for the whole of the game.

The IG activate a Squad of Ogryn and move them. The Ork player uses a pass and the IG player is then forced to move another unit, a Tactical Battalion this time. This leaves the Ork player with 8 passes still to use, but he cannot use another pass until he has carried out an activation of his own. The Ork player activates a Warboss before the IG activates a Warhound Titan. At this stage the Ork player can still make a pass but instead opts to activate a Slasha Gargant...


Hope this makes sense! Any questions?

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula and Net Epic Evolution
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 7:59 pm 
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The Bissler wrote:
I've come up with a fix for the activation disparities that avoids special rules for particular armies.

For every 5 activations that one player's force outnumbers the other (rounded down) the opposing player gets 2D3 'passes' per turn.

Only one 'pass' can be played at a time, meaning that the opposing player is forced to move a maximum of 2 activations in any one go. Note that the player with the passes is not obliged to use them if he does not wish to.

Example: An IG force has a total of 22 activations against an Ork force which only has 10 activations. The IG have 12 activations more than the Orks, meaning that the Ork player will receive 2 lots of 2D3 passes each turn. The Ork player rolls a total of 9 passes and he gets these each turn for the whole of the game.

The IG activate a Squad of Ogryn and move them. The Ork player uses a pass and the IG player is then forced to move another unit, a Tactical Battalion this time. This leaves the Ork player with 8 passes still to use, but he cannot use another pass until he has carried out an activation of his own. The Ork player activates a Warboss before the IG activates a Warhound Titan. At this stage the Ork player can still make a pass but instead opts to activate a Slasha Gargant...


Hope this makes sense! Any questions?


Hi!

That is not a bad stop gap measure until I can make organizational charts that fine tune activation per army.

So you'll have an idea of what I plan, its the simple determination at what level "group size" does a given army activate.

For orks and IG activation can be "company sized" or "clan sized" while for SM it may still be at the "detachment" level.

This makes the number of activation a lot closer between armies, but the activation "block" will vary some having quite large ones, and others smaller ones (flexibility versus power).

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula and Net Epic Evolution
PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 1:28 pm 
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Sounds good Primarch! I'm looking forward to reading your ideas in due course! ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula and Net Epic Evolution
PostPosted: Wed Sep 30, 2015 7:09 pm 
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The Bissler wrote:
Sounds good Primarch! I'm looking forward to reading your ideas in due course! ;)


Hi!

All I need is time, which has been in short supply.

I will eventually get there. :)

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