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Points Formula Rules

 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2015 2:13 pm 
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Thanks Magnus and Primarch!


Just a quick explanation, on the special cards. There are three I flagged in blue that are "subs" for when chaos is on the table. Typically when I create a larger Army list it has a few additional situation-dependent units and would likely never be fielded at full strength.



So back to the Deathstrike, the unit would then be 84 points with say 3x Barrage (28 ea)?

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2015 4:02 pm 
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Gotcha, that makes sense.

Correct.

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2015 11:08 pm 
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Hi!

Once I post up some stats for SquiggleAmp, I'll work some more on the comparison files. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Sun May 03, 2015 4:53 pm 
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I've decided to take a look at all of the damage charts in detail and see if it seems worth it to value them individually or if they can be put into some form of categories. Obviously, this will take a bit more time than doing it the other way, but should give more accurate results, which is what the formula is for.

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2015 4:01 pm 
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Leviathans. Over 900 points.
I assume it is the 200cm range barrage weapon is the main culprit here.
Still seems very overpriced to me. You guys must get more hits with your templates than me :).
So will its price go up or down with the above changes for non lethal locations?

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2015 4:17 pm 
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Matty_C wrote:
Leviathans. Over 900 points.
I assume it is the 200cm range barrage weapon is the main culprit here.
Still seems very overpriced to me. You guys must get more hits with your templates than me .
So will its price go up or down with the above changes for non lethal locations?


If you think about it, a Leviathan is basically A Reaver Titan with a few gives/takes. If you take a look a the army list I posts here, you will see that for the most part, the changes come out in the wash, so to speak, in larger armies. I should take a minute in the next day or two to break down a 5K and 10K force to see if that holds true at smaller scale.

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2015 7:12 pm 
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Matty_C wrote:
Leviathans. Over 900 points.
I assume it is the 200cm range barrage weapon is the main culprit here.
Still seems very overpriced to me. You guys must get more hits with your templates than me :).
So will its price go up or down with the above changes for non lethal locations?


Hi!

We are shooting for lower, much lower in some cases.

The assumption in the original calculations were that each hit location was a contributor to the models worth. As pointed out we believe that is not a fair assessment, since some offer more and some less and some are exposed to fire even less so.

The attempt will be to see if we can make those adjustments and see what we get. I expect them to come down, but still be more than the original gold costs, which is reasonable since giving them hit locations made them much more durable.

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2015 10:47 pm 
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So a model with more locations was assumed to be more resilient than a model with less locations.
Now that is to be changed so that it is based on the proportion of lethal vs. non-lethal possible damage location results.
Is that right?

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2015 11:26 pm 
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Matty_C wrote:
So a model with more locations was assumed to be more resilient than a model with less locations.
Now that is to be changed so that it is based on the proportion of lethal vs. non-lethal possible damage location results.
Is that right?


Hi!

It wasn't deemed to be more resilient, that is just how the formula turned it out, since the particulars of hit locations templates were no discussed until now. ;)

The idea going forward is that not all locations are equally important. Lethality in regards to locations may provide on way of solving this, as well as what side of the template its on (rear, front, etc).

There are several ways to do it, but I don't know which Magnus will attempt, we'll have to wait and see.

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Mon May 04, 2015 11:53 pm 
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Ok. Got it. I assumed template units were assigned an average save based on all locations, and costs derived from there. Didn't realise the number of locations was involved at all.
Thanks :)

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Tue May 05, 2015 5:37 am 
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There is a post a ways up where I explain exactly how the Tweak3 version of the formula figures out the hit location values, so I won't repeat it here.

The total number of locations involved will still be a factor in the reworked version. There is no way around that, well not one that I or anyone has seen yet anyway. Oddly, the more locations there are in total, the easier it is to kill the model, as you are more likely to hit an actual location and not scatter off of the chart. Hopefully the adjustments will mitigate that sufficiently.

Theoretically, the adjustments proposed and intended will lower the overall value. However, I have yet to have enough spare time to actually work out the math, so we will see. I'm still researching things, so I cannot even do the math as yet. As I mentioned somewhere, be patient, this Tweak may take some time to work through.

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2015 10:36 pm 
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I realized an easy way to quickly adjust Titan and Praetorian values. Halving the cost of each point of Armor Save should be reasonable as a quick and simple fix while I continue to work on the more detailed system, which may take a while. The results of this adjustment follow. Note that the following are only Formation values.

Praetorian & Titan hit location value modification
Tweak 3.1, quick & dirty: halve armor save value cost
also removing Chain-of-Command discount

_ Affected Formations

__ Adeptus Astares
_ Special
Warhound _ 347
Reaver ___ 455
Warlord __ 523


__ Chaos
_ Company
Khorne Banelord, Cm ___ 847
Khorne Lord of Battle _ 660
Nurgle Bubonis _______ 1907
Nurgle Plague Tower __ 1234
Slaanesh Knight _______ 973
Slaanesh Scourge ______ 936

_ Special
Reaver ______________ 455
Warhound ____________ 347
Warlord _____________ 523
Khorne Banelord _____ 654
Khorne Banelord, Cm _ 753
Nurgle Bubonis _____ 1695
Tzeentch Skylok _____ 762

_ Support
Slaanesh Questor ____ 777
Slaanesh Subjugator _ 798


__ Eldar
_ Special
Phantom ___ 432
Revenant __ 458
Revenants _ 916
Warlock ___ 646


__ Guard
_ Company
Hellbore _ 645

_ Special
C.I. Behemoth _____ 785
C.I. Volcano ______ 846
Imperial Dropship _ 651
Leviathan _________ 847
AMO Armageddon ____ 527
AMO Golgotha ______ 626
AMO Mars __________ 926
Warhound __________ 347
Reaver ____________ 455
Warlord ___________ 523


__ Adeptus Mechanicus
_ Special
Imperial Dropship _ 651
AMO Armageddon ____ 527
AMO Golgotha ______ 626
AMO Mars __________ 926
Warhound __________ 347
Reaver ____________ 455
Warlord ___________ 523

__ Titan Legions
_ Company
Imperator _____ 3437
Reaver Group __ 1536
Warlord Group _ 1766

_ Support
Warlord ___ 654
Reaver ____ 569
Warhound __ 434
Warhounds _ 867


__ Necron
_ Special
Tomb Stalker _ 706


__ Ork
_ Clan
Mega-Gargant _ 1814
Gargant Big Mob _ varies

_ Special
Mekboy _ 293
Slasha _ 361
Great __ 495


__ Squat
_ Company
Ironbreaker _ 1473
Hellbore ____ 1105
Doomanvil ___ 3040

_ Special
Behemoth _ 1183
Colossus _ 1354
Cyclops ___ 674
Leviathan _ 847


__ Tau
_ Company
Manta (normal) _ 1478
Manta (ritual) _ 1532

_ Special
Moray Railcannons _ 736
Moray Ion Phalanx _ 674
Manta ____________ 1068


__ Tyranid
_ Slave
Hierodule (1) __ 943
Hierodule (3) _ 2829
Hierophant (1) _ 1356
Hierophant (3) _ 4068

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2015 10:48 pm 
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Hi!

This is great Magnus, I can see the drops in price!

The reductions seem to go from 5% to over 15% in some cases. This is VERY good progress. I think once you "tighten" things up we'll be where we need to be (perhaps an average drop of 15-20% is "optimal").

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2015 11:20 pm 
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Yeah, the percentage drop varies from model to model, as the only thing adjusted here is Armor Save values.

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2015 11:36 pm 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
Yeah, the percentage drop varies from model to model, as the only thing adjusted here is Armor Save values.


Hi!

Interesting on how one change can make a good impact on the cost.

Be interesting to see what your trying to develop will take the costs. :)

Primarch

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