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Points Formula Rules

 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 8:00 pm 
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Hi!

Having done the price comparison documents across the different versions, I feel that a drop of cost for all those template weapons that don't have range would be extremely good, since I feel they may be slightly overvalued.

I think your point on that type of template being valuated the same as the default 50cm range may indeed be the correct "fix" for it.

Also, I noticed in your summary on how things are calculated that non-standard templates are done thus:

Quote:
For templates not found on the list above, multiply the length in cm by the width in cm and divide by 10.


Perhaps this is part of the issue too? Since it seems that if you use the largest width instead of the average it may come out to high (case in point the pyroacid spray, which has a long thin portion and a ballooning end portion). I feel that some modifications here could serve.

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 8:31 pm 
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I've had another thought.

If we consider what was previously called "direct-fire" shots to instead be a template that affects an area 1cm by 1cm (can we seriously think that five troops actually hit the exact same spot simultaneously?) and give it a value based on that (rather than just a flat 2, it would be 1*1/10 = 0.1).

If the template were 2cm by 2cm, the cost would be 0.4. This might be a little more 'realistic', at least for stands of troops, or similar weapons (Heavy Bolter, etc) with high rate of fire.

[Generally speaking, a template has to cover at least half of a model or stand to affect it, thus even a 2cm by 2cm area could only ever affect one model or stand.]

For Range, if we change that to being a cost of 0.1 per cm, we can then redefine the base cost of the weapon as being the Range Value plus the Template Value. This value would then multiplied by all other factors.

For example, a standard Bolter or Lasgun weapon would then have a value of 5.4 (5 from 50cm /10 and 0.4 for a 2cm square area affected). A barrage weapon with a 100cm Range would have a base cost of 13.6 (10 from 100cm /10 and 3.6 from a 6cm barrage template). A weapon using the Small Teardrop template would have a base cost of either 5 (0 from range zero plus 5 from template), 6 (1 from Range (length is 10cm /10), 5 from Template), or 5.5 (0.5 from Range as the centerpoint of the template is 5cm from the model, plus 5 from Template).

The question then is do we price them based on the maximum distance that:
A: the closest part of the template can be placed?
B: the centerpoint of the template can be placed?
C: the furthest part of the template can be placed?
___

Yeah, I do want to adjust the template values to be a bit more accurate to their surface area. That will be done as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2015 10:36 pm 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
I've had another thought.

If we consider what was previously called "direct-fire" shots to instead be a template that affects an area 1cm by 1cm (can we seriously think that five troops actually hit the exact same spot simultaneously?) and give it a value based on that (rather than just a flat 2, it would be 1*1/10 = 0.1).

If the template were 2cm by 2cm, the cost would be 0.4. This might be a little more 'realistic', at least for stands of troops, or similar weapons (Heavy Bolter, etc) with high rate of fire.

[Generally speaking, a template has to cover at least half of a model or stand to affect it, thus even a 2cm by 2cm area could only ever affect one model or stand.]

For Range, if we change that to being a cost of 0.1 per cm, we can then redefine the base cost of the weapon as being the Range Value plus the Template Value. This value would then multiplied by all other factors.

For example, a standard Bolter or Lasgun weapon would then have a value of 5.4 (5 from 50cm /10 and 0.4 for a 2cm square area affected). A barrage weapon with a 100cm Range would have a base cost of 13.6 (10 from 100cm /10 and 3.6 from a 6cm barrage template). A weapon using the Small Teardrop template would have a base cost of either 5 (0 from range zero plus 5 from template), 6 (1 from Range (length is 10cm /10), 5 from Template), or 5.5 (0.5 from Range as the centerpoint of the template is 5cm from the model, plus 5 from Template).

The question then is do we price them based on the maximum distance that:
A: the closest part of the template can be placed?
B: the centerpoint of the template can be placed?
C: the furthest part of the template can be placed?
___

Yeah, I do want to adjust the template values to be a bit more accurate to their surface area. That will be done as well.


Hi!

My answer to your multiple choice question would be...

"whichever gives me the lowest cost". ;)

If your pressing me to pick one I'd say B, but not but much over A.

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 10:24 pm 
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Just at the moment I'm going through the weapons on the models and composing a comparison document just for the weapons themselves. This is being done as per V0.42 so that we can get a picture of where things are just now. This is why I'm finding so many weapon related typos and miss-calculations.

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 10:28 pm 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
Just at the moment I'm going through the weapons on the models and composing a comparison document just for the weapons themselves. This is being done as per V0.42 so that we can get a picture of where things are just now. This is why I'm finding so many weapon related typos and miss-calculations.


Hi!

Once your done with this process I will get the updated 0.42 document out. :)

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2015 11:22 pm 
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Hi Magnus, I just wanted to check in with you about the ongoing formula project. At one point there were a lot of updates going on but I noticed that there haven't been changes of late; do you regard the .42 update as being the last without extensive testing or do you still regard the project as being active in terms of tweaking?

We've currently settled on the .4 update only because we wanted to stick to a particular update until you were satisfied with how things were,

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 3:03 am 
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Yeah, sorry for the lack of any progress recently. I got busy with work, then a bit bored with this, then busy with other things, and here we are.

There are things I am planning on still tweaking once I get back to this. I just need to recharge a bit I guess.

In other words, the formula is not by any means done, but there will be a bit more of a lull between changes.

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 7:26 am 
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Cheers Magnus - no need to apologise, life happens and I don't blame you if you're feeling fatigued by the project as it is a huge amount of work you've already put into this!

We'll stick with what we're doing meantime. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 8:08 pm 
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Hi!

I wouldn't worry too much Bissler, I myself have all my projects on hold due to work, so I need some free time to get the revision rolling among other things.

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2015 5:08 pm 
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primarch wrote:
MagnusIlluminus wrote:
Just at the moment I'm going through the weapons on the models and composing a comparison document just for the weapons themselves. This is being done as per V0.42 so that we can get a picture of where things are just now. This is why I'm finding so many weapon related typos and miss-calculations.


Hi!

Once your done with this process I will get the updated 0.42 document out. :)

Primarch


Since it's going to be a while before I get through all of this, go ahead and publish the 0.42 costs as they are now. Any further error corrections that I make I'll turn into V0.43.

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2015 7:27 pm 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
primarch wrote:
MagnusIlluminus wrote:
Just at the moment I'm going through the weapons on the models and composing a comparison document just for the weapons themselves. This is being done as per V0.42 so that we can get a picture of where things are just now. This is why I'm finding so many weapon related typos and miss-calculations.


Hi!

Once your done with this process I will get the updated 0.42 document out. :)

Primarch


Since it's going to be a while before I get through all of this, go ahead and publish the 0.42 costs as they are now. Any further error corrections that I make I'll turn into V0.43.


Hi!

Okay, I'll get on it. :)

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 12:39 am 
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OP updated with a couple of weapon SA and a couple of new weapon TSM modifiers.

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 1:57 am 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
OP updated with a couple of weapon SA and a couple of new weapon TSM modifiers.


Hi!

Given work and the upcoming holiday season, I'm putting everything on hold until the end of January, when I will get things rolling again with the projects and revisions.

Thanks!

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 3:04 am 
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No worries. Perhaps by then I'll have 0.43 fully done. The main change I'm doing for 0.43 is changing the Formation calculation to the simpler version presented a page or two back. This will somewhat simplify making variable formations as well as normal ones. And error corrections.

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 6:58 pm 
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OPs updated for versions 0.42 and 0.43.

0.42 changed values for most Movement based Special Abilities. This affects Move calculations and Transport ability value calculation.
0.42 also changed a few general Special Abilities from fixed value to multipliers. This reduced model values for many questionable models, especially Ratlings.
0.43 changed formation building rules. Specifically, Break Point calculations were simplified which is resulting in slightly higher values for complicated formations.
0.43 also fixes many errors I've been finding in weapon value calculations. As a result of this, I've added a few previously unspecified weapon SA into the list.

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