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Points Formula Rules

 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2015 9:18 pm 
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Hi!

I would go with the evenly split option, since that would be "easier" to remember.

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2015 3:03 am 
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Two questions for people.

Can we get some opinions posted on whether or not to add an adjustment for activations, and how much to use if so? See the last post on page 10 of this thread for examples. Note that the Company values there are slightly out of date, but the relative changes are still relevant.
____

Second, changing Special Abilities. The following was posted over in the Gold, Imperial Guard thread, so people may have missed it:

primarch wrote:
MagnusIlluminus wrote:
That is a very, very good point. Many of the special abilities could likely benefit from being applied in that way. Not all of them, as some have a fixed ability regardless of the abilities of the model.

As a brief list, I'd say that the following could / should be converted to multipliers:
Stealth
Sniper
Deep Strike
Infiltrate
Regeneration
Teleport

The following seem to me to have fixed abilities and should keep fixed values. That is, the value of the ability does not vary by the power of the model:
Hard to Hit
Psychic Save
Shields / Fields
Inspirational
Combat Leader
Medic
Mechanic
Duplication
Combat Engineer

The other abilities I'm not so sure on and will have to review. What do the rest of you think about this?


Hi!

I like this train of thought very much! (Thanks Matty_C for bringing up the idea).

I agree with your list Magnus, those listed first are definitely more or less valuable dependent on the units other stats unlike those on the second list which are pretty much "stable" regardless of unit power.

A great idea overall!

Primarch



Two sub-questions here.
_ 1. Are there any other Special Abilities that people feel should be converted into being percentage adjustments rather than fixed costs? These should be ones where the power varies based on the other stats of the model rather than having fixed power.

_ 2. What should the % be? Equal to what the fixed value was? (IE, +20 would be +20%) Something else?

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2015 7:26 am 
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Hi,

Being honest, the activations problem is one I am really concerned about but it does effect matters in Evolution more than Gold. Unless others think it should happen I'd leave things as are. I'm looking at a few fixes for Evolution with regards to this matter and I don't want to put you through a lot of work if it may be undesirable.

I think your idea about the special abilities is a good one although I would say that some of those are better than others, Regeneration being the best, Infiltrate the least important.

I don't have an answer as to what these should cost percentage wise, sorry.

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2015 7:29 am 
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Have any Gold players tried out the new formula? I'd recommend they playtest a game of at least 4K and play IG v Orks or Squats to see if the activation problems I've encountered are worth considering further.

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2015 5:52 pm 
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That's a good point. The current costs for the abilities proposed to change to % based are:

20 Deep Strike
20 Infiltrate
20 Regeneration
20 Sniper
20 Stealth
30 Stealth, Improved [does not require being in Cover]
20 Teleport

Interesting that all of those have a cost of 20 currently, except for the improved version of one. If we go with % = cost, then all of the base versions would be +20% and the Improved one +30%.

Good point about Infiltrate. It does only have an effect during the first turn of the game, and then only during setup. Still, starting the battle further into the field does mean that the formation is that much closer to securing an objective or getting into a good firing position. Thus likely it's value will be seen differently by players depending on if they use these formations a lot or not.

The activations issue may sort itself out depending on what comes out of that other thread, which despite not posting anything to for a while, I am still thinking about. Still, that probably won't have any effect on Gold. I did have a thought about activations that you might try. Perhaps give each formation 1 activation, regardless of the number of detachments it has. In other words, a Space Marine Tactical Company has 4 detachments (HQ, 3 Tactical) and while each of these would hold to their own coherency and could be placed anywhere as is normal, they would all act together on the same activation. This would severely reduce activation disparity between most armies.

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2015 6:43 pm 
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I'm thinking about Inflitrate. You can't move quite as far up the board in Turn 1 as a unit with say Rhinos but you're right, you can get 40cm. They should be reasonably more expensive for that reason but again I struggle when trying to put a value on that.

Sniper is another ability I don't value that much but I really should look at them more, particularly when playing against the IG.

Deep Strike and Teleport are powerful but that is tempered by being restricted to Advance orders. I think we discussed this before, we were considering scrapping the order limitation but can't remember the outcome.

That's a good idea about the company activations and is the flip side of what I was thinking where I was planning on splitting Ork (Boyz) mobs into three units of 5. Some tinkering beckons!

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2015 7:53 pm 
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Hi!

I rather like the idea of a percentage add to base cost for abilities rather than a flat cost. Makes fine tuning things easier, since small advantage abilities like infiltrate can be +10% and other can scale from there.

I also predict some abilities which are not that useful under Gold like sniper should only be +10% or maybe 15% (that may solve the ratling cost problem I think).

I also predict that abilities that were not that useful under Gold maybe more so under NE6, given the potential difference in army organization.

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2015 10:02 pm 
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I'm starting to think that giving Company and Special formations a cost discount may be a bad idea. Especially if the usage of formations is going to be changing. Thus I'm currently working on V0.41 which will include all Morale and Command/Orders modifiers in the Model Cost entry and will remove all discounts to Company and Special formations.

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2015 10:18 pm 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
I'm starting to think that giving Company and Special formations a cost discount may be a bad idea. Especially if the usage of formations is going to be changing. Thus I'm currently working on V0.41 which will include all Morale and Command/Orders modifiers in the Model Cost entry and will remove all discounts to Company and Special formations.


Hi!

I agree. Those discounts may have no place in NE6. So cost just based on morale and command seem all we need for now.

I am preparing to open the discussion on army organizations on Facebook soon. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2015 11:00 pm 
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Oh, I'm also removing them from NEG formations. At least, tentatively. Honestly, I don't recall offhand the reason that they have discounts at all.

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2015 1:37 am 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
Oh, I'm also removing them from NEG formations. At least, tentatively. Honestly, I don't recall offhand the reason that they have discounts at all.


Hi!

The organizations topic is now on facebook here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/SMEPIC4 ... 550519904/

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Tue Aug 04, 2015 4:56 am 
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I like this very much! Maybe it would be worth starting a separate thread here also?

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 12:51 am 
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primarch wrote:
Hi!

I agree. Those discounts may have no place in NE6. So cost just based on morale and command seem all we need for now.

Primarch


And Break Point. That will continue to influence formation costs as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2015 2:35 am 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
primarch wrote:
Hi!

I agree. Those discounts may have no place in NE6. So cost just based on morale and command seem all we need for now.

Primarch


And Break Point. That will continue to influence formation costs as well.


Hi!

Ah, yes can forget morale. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2015 11:30 pm 
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First and second posts updated to V0.41 and changed a few formatting issues a bit. Should be easier to read now.

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