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Points Formula Rules

 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 6:34 am 
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Two adds to the Movement value for Transport rules.

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 4:10 pm 
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Hi!

Thank you for updating this. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 4:18 am 
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I just realized that the formula is wrong. The current meta game, with long weapon ranges, means that shooting is very important. The way the formula is now strongly implies that the Save value is four times more valuable than ranged weapons and that CAF is of more value than ranged as well. Which is just not right. Therefore I'm going to do another tweak run and see if I can fix these.

My thought at the moment is to double the base cost of direct fire weapons (from 1 to 2), increase the cost of template weapons (probably by 50% or so), and reduce the values for Save and CAF (probably by 50% or so) and see if that helps any.

Doing this *should* also fix the problem we are currently having with a few Light Artillery models having negative values.

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 4:32 am 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
I just realized that the formula is wrong. The current meta game, with long weapon ranges, means that shooting is very important. The way the formula is now strongly implies that the Save value is four times more valuable than ranged weapons and that CAF is of more value than ranged as well. Which is just not right. Therefore I'm going to do another tweak run and see if I can fix these.

My thought at the moment is to double the base cost of direct fire weapons (from 1 to 2), increase the cost of template weapons (probably by 50% or so), and reduce the values for Save and CAF (probably by 50% or so) and see if that helps any.

Doing this *should* also fix the problem we are currently having with a few Light Artillery models having negative values.


Hi!

Sounds good. I will wait until you tweak this before compiling my pdf on formula values.

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 9:00 pm 
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Minor update. I have decided for this next tweak run that I am only going to round off final Formation costs to whole numbers and not to multiples of five. I feel that rounding to 5 is loosing too much detail and players can always choose to round off when they select formations anyway.

For this run I am reducing the base cost of Saves to 3 points from 4 points, increasing the base cost of direct-fire weapons to 2 points from 1 point, and increasing the base cost of template weapons by half (2 becomes 3, etc). So far the results are looking better than the last set. This change is solving the problem with most Light Artillery. I'm still going to hold off posting any lists for a while until I get a few more forces done.

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 8:11 am 
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Updated initial post for changes from tweak2. Specified the base cost of Direct Fire weapons more clearly, increased base cost of direct fire weapons, increased cost of template weapons by half, and reduced cost of Save by 1.

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 1:18 am 
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Hi!

Are the tweaks for the armies lists all in so I can make a pdf for gold with their values?

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 5:11 am 
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Yes. Well, mostly. I have yet to put the specific Marine Chapters through the formula, including Chaos Chapters, Eldar Craftworlds, etc. I did post the values for Space Wolves per a specific request, but those are one revision old at this point. Thus aside from those, and any other revisions that may happen, the values are good to go.

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 3:34 pm 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
Yes. Well, mostly. I have yet to put the specific Marine Chapters through the formula, including Chaos Chapters, Eldar Craftworlds, etc. I did post the values for Space Wolves per a specific request, but those are one revision old at this point. Thus aside from those, and any other revisions that may happen, the values are good to go.


Hi!

I'm not to worries about the "specialty" lists. Those can be added later and the file updated.

Seems I got some work to do. ;D

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 7:35 am 
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I've been looking over the movement cost generation, and I've realized I'm not really happy with some of how that is dealt with. I'm currently thinking about how to rework that section or if it's even worth it.

One big thing that bothers me is the negative values for terrain access for some model types. At the least, I'm going to rework that a bit so that all values from that are positive numbers.

I'm also thinking that now that Pinning Class adjusts the cost of CAF, it should probably be removed from Move cost.


I'm also not really happy with how arbitrary many of the Special Abilities are valued. At least, they seem arbitrary. It's hard to tell. I may have to crowd-source that discussion.

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 4:19 pm 
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Hi!

I would agree that pinning valuation should be tied to CAF not movement.

As for the special abilities, they are indeed arbitary. I am at a loss on how to valuate some of them.

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 2:26 pm 
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I'm also thinking now that the Break Point part of value generation is not as good as it could be. Currently, models in a formation beyond the Break Point essentially contribute nothing to the cost of the formation and that just won't do. They still contribute to the game, so they should have a cost toward the formation.

My thought toward reworking that is to have those models up to the BP have high value, and those beyond have a low value, probably based on Morale score as their Morale determines how likely they are to remain useful once the formation hits it's BP.

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2015 6:34 pm 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
I'm also thinking now that the Break Point part of value generation is not as good as it could be. Currently, models in a formation beyond the Break Point essentially contribute nothing to the cost of the formation and that just won't do. They still contribute to the game, so they should have a cost toward the formation.

My thought toward reworking that is to have those models up to the BP have high value, and those beyond have a low value, probably based on Morale score as their Morale determines how likely they are to remain useful once the formation hits it's BP.


Hi!

Fully agree with this. I guess it should be tied to morale somehow. Break point is such an integral part of the game it should be represented in the formula.

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 6:03 pm 
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Oh, Break Point already is a part of the formula. It just is not as accurate as I think it should be.

Right, what I have so far for the next tweak is detailed below. I'd like people to read through it and give feedback.

The changes to Movement, Pinning Class costs, etc I am very happy with as those models with negligible (or negative) costs have increased nicely to still have low, but now meaningful (and positive) costs. Also models with very high costs (Titans, many Flyers, etc) are reducing by a fair amount. They are still high, but not quite as mind-numbingly high as before. I'm not going to post these numbers as yet as I want to work out the adjusted formation costs (from the BP change) first.

The changes to Break Point I am mechanically happy with (I think - I haven't actually run the numbers yet on those changes) but not entirely happy with the wording. If anyone can come up with a way to simplify the explanations I'll consider them. Of course, I'll be thinking about that myself as well.
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The beginning of the formula will change to:
_____

The total cost of a model is made up from several factors, each based on a basic stat of the model. These stats are:

A: Model Type (the Pinning Class of the model)
B: Movement (how fast the model can move modified by how it interacts with terrain)
C: Armor Save (how resistant the unit is to taking damage)
D: Close Assault Factor: CAF (how good the unit is in Close Combat)
E: Ranged Weapons (shooting foes)
F: other (any other Special Ability not already taken into account above)

Calculated costs for each of these stats are added together to determine the final cost of the unit. No rounding of values takes place until the final value for the Formation is determined and then only to the nearest whole number.

A: Model Type

The basic cost of a model is determined by it's type. This is the same thing as it's Pinning Class for NetEpic Gold, and these categories are:

1. Infantry & Light Artillery
2. Cavalry & Walkers
3. Vehicle & Heavy Artillery (includes most Flyers, except any that specify otherwise)
4. Super Heavy & Knights
5. Praetorians & Titans

Since each category can pin that category and any lower, the cost for each level is that level's number and the numbers of each lower level added together. Thus Model Type costs are:

Infantry & Light Artillery: 1
Cavalry & Walkers: 3 (1+2)
Vehicle & Heavy Artillery: 6
Super Heavy & Knight: 10
Praetorian & Titan: 15


B: Movement

Movement cost consists of three factors. Terrain Access, Movement rate, and Move type. Once the values for each of these is determined, they are multiplied together.

_ Terrain Access

Terrain Access rates how well that model interacts with the terrain on the battlefield, based on the Movement Restrictions chart on page 30 of the Core Rules. In that chart, each green box is valued as +0.5, each yellow as +0.25, and each red box as 0. One "imaginary box" is added to each Model Type to simulate "normal" terrain and this is considered green for all types.

Infantry & Light Artillery: 2.75 (4 Green, 3 Yellow, 1 Red)
Cavalry, Walker, & Knight: 2 (2 Green, 4 Yellow, 2 Red)
Vehicle & SH, Heavy Artillery: 1.75 (2 Green, 3 Yellow, 3 Red)
Titans & Praetorians: 3 (6 Green, 0 Yellow, 2 Red)

Barricade, Trench, & Minefield are counted as one box. Same with Light & Standard Building and Fortification.

_ Movement rate.

Take the Move of the unit in cm and divide by 5. To put that another way, this value is 1 point per 5cm of Move.

_____

All other category letters will be advanced one place. The section on CAF would change as follows:
_____

D: CAF

The CAF is added to the unit's roll in Close Combat. As the CAF value is more useful for a model that is faster, more maneuverable, or of a higher Pinning class, the base value is dependent on these values. Specifically, add together the value for Model Type, Terrain Access, Move Rate, and Move Type, then subtract five. [We subtract five to keep this value from being ridiculously large and 5.75 is the lowest likely total value of these four entries.] Once this value is determined multiply by the CAF value, then multiply by all of the following modifiers that the model may have.

_____

The section on Break Point would change as follows:
_____

__ Break Point:
_ The value of the formation is adjusted by its Break Point. Break Point should be the last thing one does for calculating a formation's cost.
_ Split the models in the formation into two sub-groups. The first sub-group consists of a number of models equal to the Break Point value and the second group is the remaining models. For example, if the BP is 2/3 then the first group is 2 models and the second group is 1 model. If the BP is 15/29, then the first group is 15 models and the second group is 14 models. Command models & their transports (if any) always fall into the second group. If the formation consists of more than one type of model (for example, Infantry stands and transport Vehicles) then split them in the same ratio they are found in the formation. If there are odd model slots left over for the first sub-group, fill them with a model of the most expensive non-Command model type. For example, a Space Marine Tactical Company has 1 Marine HQ stand, 1 Command Rhino, 18 Tactical stands, and 9 Rhino with a BP of 15/29. As the Tactical stands are in a 2 to 1 ratio with the Rhino, the first group would consist of 10 Tactical stands and 5 Rhino (15 models), while the second group would be 8 stands, 4 Rhino, 1 HQ, & 1 Cm.Rhino (14 models).
_ First sub-group. For the value of this group, take the average of the BP ratio (expressed as a decimal) and 1 and multiply by the value of the models. For example, a formation with 10 models that has a BP of 5 (IE half) would adjust (0.5 + 1 = 1.5 / 2 = 0.75) the value of this group by 3/4ths (IE by multiplying it by 0.75). Common BP ratios and their adjustment value are:
_ Break ___ multiply
_ Point ____ by __
__ 1/1 _____ 1
__ 2/3 _____ 0.833
__ 3/5 _____ 0.8
__ 4/7 _____ 0.786
__ 5/9 _____ 0.778
_ half* ____ 0.75
Half should include any BP ratio that is higher than 5/9 (IE: 10/19, 15/29, etc) as those will steadily get closer to the 0.75 value and that level of precision should not be necessary.
_ Second sub-group. The value of this group is determined by the Morale of the models, as their Morale score is what determines how likely they are to be useful once the formation hits it's BP. You pay 10% per point of Morale for each model in this group. Models that do not count at all toward BP cost half of what their Morale would otherwise indicate (generally this will be limited to transport Vehicle(s) in Special Formations, but there are a few others).
_ Morale __ Cost per
_ score ____ model
___ 6 _______ 10%
___ 5 _______ 20%
___ 4 _______ 30%
___ 3 _______ 40%
___ 2 _______ 50%
___ 1 _______ 60%
__ -- _______ 70%
Note that different models in this group may have differing relative costs. Command models almost always will at the least.

_____

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Last edited by MagnusIlluminus on Fri Apr 17, 2015 4:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Points Formula Rules
PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 10:08 pm 
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Hi!

Very interesting, my comments below.

First a purely organization observation. You list "B" as movement, then list CAF as "D", jumping a "C" category. Is somthing missing or merely a typo?

1. Would the presence of "wounds" or "damage rating" be categorized as other? If so what value would it have? While wounds/DR is mostly confined to Tyranids, I am thinking ahead to potential revisions and variants like Platinum which may use "wounds" as a differentiators for unit resilience (beyond just the armor save).

2. Sections on Model types and movement seem short and to the point. As well as easy to understand. I don't see any way to improve the wording there.

3. Break point. Quite ingenious to split the calculation into two groups. The first being the amount of models to be eliminated to achieve VP allocation and the second (which is often overlooked) to be dependent on its morale as towards its value.

This is an accurate observation, since once broken, remaining troops are usually used in a more reckless fashion and it is only morale that forms the remaining barrier to its continued used. A premium cost on high morale troops in the remaining segment is extremely appropriate as the higher the morale, the higher the use, even after VP loss. Thus a higher cost should and must be assigned.

As for the wording it may benefit from assigning a name or a tag to the each group for easier remembering.

The first subgroup can be called "BP group" since once that many casualties are inflicted the formation breaks and VP are assigned. the second can be called the "morale group". These names or any others help people remember what each group represent when they calculate so as to stress what each group accomplishes formula wise.

I think your example is very good and perhaps at some point some illustration of it would prove beneficial if words are not enough to convey the intent.

Primarch

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