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Net Epic Evolution Basic Rules & Video Tutorial

 Post subject: Re: Net Epic Evolution Basic Rules
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 7:09 am 
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Hi, here was my list, and my thoughts below;

Falcon Host 387
Jetbike Host 513
Tempest Host 601
Guardian Host 97


War Walkers 91
Striking Scorpions 76
Howling Banshees 85
Fire Dragons 66
Wave Serpents 88
DoomWeavers 73
Warp Hunters 119


Revanent Titans 822
Avatar Free



I toyed with a few variations on this list before committing to it - i knew that what ever i did i was probably going to out-activate the squats, although i was still surprised by how much (21-9 i think?)

The Squat deployment was definitely a good tactic - and was lost on me at first, as it was pointed out after the battle, i could have activated the 9 or so units on my right flank unopposed (grabbed the objectives behind cover and set up for a flanking move the next turn) and the squats wouldn't have had a single target, allowing me to then use the rest of my force with out fear of losses.

Instead i threw my cheap units (guardians etc) up the field evenly - giving the squats some targets, but nothing that was going to cause me much pain.

after the first turn only my Guardians were broken, for a paultry 10VPs.

The second turn was more balanced, with the squats being able to dish out a lot of damage - and soak it up too.

They were able to break my Warp Hunters, Jet Bike host, Doomweavers and howling banshees. (almost the entirety of my left side where they faced off) The rest of my units were relatively safe on the other side and given another turn would have probably been able to sweep across and out maneuver the squats and get in to better firing positions - taking out the last unit of Gyrocopters would have left them with no fast units to take objectives.

New points continue to work for me - in future i think i'll leave the Warp hunters and Wave Serpents behind as their abilities are not as effective in NE:Evolution as 2nd ed i'd suggest, so probably not really worth the points value, might need to paint up more guardians for fodder!

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 Post subject: Re: Net Epic Evolution Basic Rules
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 10:17 am 
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Cheers Craig!

A few points to pick up on - we played with VPs being worth 10% of actual cost and objectives being worth 50 points which is why Craig refers to "a paltry 10 points", under usual play that would be a lot!

There are specific rules about the Wave Serpents for Evolution which I had forgotten I'd written. They can fire their field before the start of the Action Phase which means they can really work the same way as they did under previous editions. I never think to check the Evolution errata when picking an army but it's probably a good thing to get in the habit of doing!

Not sure how the Warp Hunters are any worse in Evolution, think they were always cruddy! Am I maybe missing something?

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 Post subject: Re: Net Epic Evolution Basic Rules
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 11:18 am 
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Yes, i think where warp hunters now suffer is that under SM2/NE:G (i presume) they would be able to First Fire on a unit and if not destroy them, then they could at least prevent them firing in the Advanced fire phase. (not much but something!)

Under Evolution they are pretty useless in turn 1 - as they can't shoot units that haven't yet activated, and as movement/shooting is simultaneous they can't prevent a unit from firing etc.

However i guess in Turn 2+ they are better than in the old days, as the can theoretically prevent an enemy unit doing anything if they hit them before they activate... Hmm, that just occurred to me as i was typing... more data required before i write them off i think!

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 Post subject: Re: Net Epic Evolution Basic Rules
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 1:47 pm 
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Time to investigate! Thanks for clarifying!

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 Post subject: Re: Net Epic Evolution Basic Rules
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 2:00 pm 
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I think the best thing to do for Evolution rules is to make the "Alternative Warp Effect" rules standard. This would mean that while your Warp Hunter wouldn't do much in turn 1 other than be able to suck troops into the warp, there's a chance that it could move into enemy units at the start of turn 2.

You are totally right, if you get them fired quickly in turn 2 you could prevent a unit from moving and firing, more powerful than was previously the case.

I'd be happy with this change as I've always thought Warp Hunters were an appallingly bad waste of points!

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 Post subject: Re: Net Epic Evolution Basic Rules
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 7:00 pm 
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Interesting list, and good points raised. There may be some adjustments necessary to formula values for when using Evolution, as that does mess with the rules of the game a bit. I'm not quite sure what or how to adjust though.

One minor quibble with the Eldar forces chosen is that under the Points Formula, the Avatar should NOT be be free. Under the Points Formula, there is no such thing as a Free Card, unless math says it's cost is zero. Everything has cost. You also do not appear to be running a Craftworld based force and thus would not get one at all. See the first line of the second paragraph under the heading "Avatar" on page 5 of the Eldar.pdf. To me, that says that an army only gets an Avatar if it is using Craftworld specific formations. I suppose I could be misinterpreting that sentence, but that's what I see in it.

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 Post subject: Re: Net Epic Evolution Basic Rules
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 1:09 pm 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
Interesting list, and good points raised. There may be some adjustments necessary to formula values for when using Evolution, as that does mess with the rules of the game a bit. I'm not quite sure what or how to adjust though.

One minor quibble with the Eldar forces chosen is that under the Points Formula, the Avatar should NOT be be free. Under the Points Formula, there is no such thing as a Free Card, unless math says it's cost is zero. Everything has cost. You also do not appear to be running a Craftworld based force and thus would not get one at all. See the first line of the second paragraph under the heading "Avatar" on page 5 of the Eldar.pdf. To me, that says that an army only gets an Avatar if it is using Craftworld specific formations. I suppose I could be misinterpreting that sentence, but that's what I see in it.


Ah, yeah i think you are right about that (i made the mistake of painting my army Biel-Tan, before i read their Craftworld bonus - i suppose i could just 'count as' them as another craftworld, might do this the next time)

cool - wasn't sure about the 'free' card thing - oh well, at 368 points i guess i've got a nice ornament for my shelf, as there's no way i'd ever pay that for the Avatar (in our 3-4k games that only last 2-3 turns he normally only makes it half way up the board and gets distracted by things charging past him :P )

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 Post subject: Re: Net Epic Evolution Basic Rules
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 4:55 pm 
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As usual the Avatar played no part in the game so I have no issue with it having been fielded. Also, the Avatar can be bought for any Craftworld so I don't see any issue with it having been fielded if it had been paid for. The Craftworld lists don't add that many options so it wouldn't surprise me to see a Craftworld list that included an Avatar but to all intents and purposes was vanilla in any other way.

I agree with Craig though, I'd never field an avatar for those points. The only way I would consider it would be if the player could control its actions rather than it heading to the closest unit.

I'm happy to just use the points costs as they are for Evolution. There are a few cases where I have had to rework certain rules for certain units but there are only a handful of such units for each force and the changes are fairly minor. It definitely wouldn't be a good use of your time Magnus!

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 Post subject: Re: Net Epic Evolution Basic Rules
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 7:26 pm 
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The Bissler wrote:
As usual the Avatar played no part in the game so I have no issue with it having been fielded. Also, the Avatar can be bought for any Craftworld so I don't see any issue with it having been fielded if it had been paid for. The Craftworld lists don't add that many options so it wouldn't surprise me to see a Craftworld list that included an Avatar but to all intents and purposes was vanilla in any other way.

I agree with Craig though, I'd never field an avatar for those points. The only way I would consider it would be if the player could control its actions rather than it heading to the closest unit.

I'm happy to just use the points costs as they are for Evolution. There are a few cases where I have had to rework certain rules for certain units but there are only a handful of such units for each force and the changes are fairly minor. It definitely wouldn't be a good use of your time Magnus!


Hi!

Once the eldar revision commences, the avatar should be redesigned to be a "free roaming" unit like any other.

The only reason the restriction exists is to compensate for it being free. If its not free, it should be equally free to move about.

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 Post subject: Re: Net Epic Evolution Basic Rules
PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 12:41 am 
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You do have a good point about the high cost and it not being controllable. I do not currently have a modifier for that detriment in the formula, but there really should be one. The question there is how much of a discount for that would be appropriate? 20%? 30%? 50%? Some other value?

As a note, the VP for the Avatar in 2nd & Gold is 2, which assumes an approximate cost between 150 and 225. It is a powerful model that can do lots of damage IF it gets close enough to things, so it's formula value should probably not be lower than it's equivalent 2nd & Gold value. IMO anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: Net Epic Evolution Basic Rules
PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 1:09 am 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
You do have a good point about the high cost and it not being controllable. I do not currently have a modifier for that detriment in the formula, but there really should be one. The question there is how much of a discount for that would be appropriate? 20%? 30%? 50%? Some other value?

As a note, the VP for the Avatar in 2nd & Gold is 2, which assumes an approximate cost between 150 and 225. It is a powerful model that can do lots of damage IF it gets close enough to things, so it's formula value should probably not be lower than it's equivalent 2nd & Gold value. IMO anyway.


Hi!

Not being able to fully control a unit is a pretty big negative factor, I'd say at least 50% discount.

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 Post subject: Re: Net Epic Evolution Basic Rules
PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 4:42 am 
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I agree with Primarch, 50% discount IF the Avatar is to remain out of player's control.

I've made Avatars dance like idiots in the past, deliberately moving units to areas where it is forced to move towards them but they are far enough away that the Avatar can't do anything!

Personally I'd prefer to see the Avatar be controllable by the player. - Chaos Greater Daemons are controlled by the player; other than it being free, is there any good reason the Avatar can't be controlled in a similar fashion?

If it is no longer a free unit then I'd be surprised if anyone would pay the points for a unit they cannot control.

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 Post subject: Re: Net Epic Evolution Basic Rules
PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 5:01 am 
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As far as I am aware, the reason they are out of the Player's control is that was how the Eldar Avatar behaved in W40K fluff from way back then. Whether that counts as a "good reason" depends on POV.

Greater Daemons are a different entity. They are the only Command models that the Powers have (nearly anyway), and have always been under the player's control even in 1st edition W40K. The Eldar Avatar is not a Command model in any reasonable sense, and never has been except in a ceremonial manner.

Still, I have no problem with either changing the default Eldar Avatar to being controlled or just having a variant that is.

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 Post subject: Re: Net Epic Evolution Basic Rules
PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 5:07 am 
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Another option if not unleashing the Avatar were to be preferable would be to double it's Move. As an opponent I'd suddenly fear the Avatar knowing it could move up to 30cm...

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 Post subject: Re: Net Epic Evolution Basic Rules
PostPosted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 3:10 pm 
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Hi!

I think the simplest method is just to lift the restriction. I always thought it to be a mere imposition to justify its free cost.

Now that free doesn't exist such restrictions should be eliminated.

To be frank I haven't used that particular restriction in many years.

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