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Titan Experience Rules

 Post subject: Re: Titan Experience Rules
PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 6:20 pm 
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lylekelm wrote:
Wow Magnus you have put in a lot of hard work.
Amazing.

Thanks. It is a labor of love, both for the Epic game system and for Mutations - I seem to inject them into just about every system I run for. There is also a decent amount yet to be done.

I'm guessing not from your brief post, but do you see any problems, any places where things should be explained more clearly, or anything that seems out of place?


Oh, I forgot another thing to keep in find for those who have not read the rest of the thread recently.

When a Chaos Titan achieves an Honor, it has a chance to gain a Mutation/Reward of the same Tier, and also gains one of each lower Tier IF (and only if) it gains the one of the same Tier. In other words, when it gains it's first Honor, it has a 1 in 6 chance of gaining a Tier 1 Mutation or Reward. When it gains it's 3rd Honor it has a 3 in 6 chance of gaining 3 M/R: a Tier 3, a Tier 2, and a Tier 1. When it gains it's 6th and final Honor it has two 5 in 6 chances of gaining 6 M/R: one of each Tier. Thus it is possible, but not likely, for a very, very lucky Titan to have as a maximum: 6 Tier 1, 5 Tier 2, 4 Tier 3, 3 Tier 4, 2 Tier 5, and one Tier 6 M/R.

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Last edited by MagnusIlluminus on Sat Jul 04, 2015 11:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Titan Experience Rules
PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2014 7:06 pm 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
lylekelm wrote:
Wow Magnus you have put in a lot of hard work.
Amazing.

Thanks. It is a labor of love, both for the Epic game system and for Mutations - I seem to inject them into just about every system I run for. There is also a decent amount yet to be done.

I'm guessing not from your brief post, but do you see any problems, any places where things should be explained more clearly, or anything that seems out of place?


Oh, I forgot another thing to keep in find for those who have not read the rest of the thread recently.

When a Chaos Titan achieves an Honor, it has a chance to gain a Mutation/Reward of the same Tier, and also gains one of each lower Tier IF (and only if) it gains the one of the same Tier. In other words, when it gains it's first Honor, it has a 1 in 6 chance of gaining a Tier 1 Honor. When it gains it's 3rd Honor it has a 3 in 6 chance of gaining 3 M/R: a Tier 3, a Tier 2, and a Tier 1. When it gains it's 6th and final Honor it has two 5 in 6 chances of gaining 6 M/R: one of each Tier. Thus it is possible, but not likely, for a very, very lucky Titan to have as a maximum: 6 Tier 1, 5 Tier 2, 4 Tier 3, 3 Tier 4, 2 Tier 5, and one Tier 6 M/R.


Hi!

Thanks for summarizing it again, I was getting tired of going back and forth on old posts. ;)

Got through the first couple of tiers, trying to do "thought experiments" to see if I can spots holes. So far so good! :)

I'm taking my time though there is much to digest. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Titan Experience Rules
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 6:13 am 
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No worries, it takes as long as it takes.

As a note, Tiers 3, 4, & 5 are not not done yet because I don't have enough ideas. They are not done yet because I have too many ideas and narrowing them down is difficult. Also making sure to get enough (relatively) new concepts in the list to make it noteworthy while keeping the abilities reasonably within the realms of Epic scale is quite a balancing act. Certain things that worked well in 1st edition 40K (remember the old Realm of Chaos books?... ) may not work so well in 'modern' Epic.


I've also thought up another question. Which Mutations/Rewards should "outrank" others? By that, I mean should the order in which they are gained be more important, or should a higher Tier ability always replace a lower Tier one? As an example, say a Tzeentch Titan at Honor 5 gains, among other things, Flight. It then spends time Flying around, making Swoop attacks, and eventually gain Honor 6. At this point, among other things, it gains Skimmer. Should Skimmer now replace Flight since is was the most recently gained one, or should the Titan retain Flight (and ignore Skimmer) since Flight is from a higher Tier? If this were any Faction other than Chaos, I'd immediately say higher Tier overpowers lower, but Chaos could go either way.

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 Post subject: Re: Titan Experience Rules
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2014 4:44 pm 
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Hi!

My stance would be the higher tier replaces the lower one. It would capture the "transformation" of the titan as it strives to reach daemonhood.

indeed I do remember realms of chaos, I still have the book, and these tiers you've laid out reminds me of them. One of my favorite GW books! :)

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 Post subject: Re: Titan Experience Rules
PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 8:32 pm 
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Hi!

I've finally got through of it it Magnus. I cannot see anything I can "break" out right or that is "unbalanced" as I thought on them from a theoretical stand point.

At this point we'd need to see the remaining tiers done as well as actual play test.

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 Post subject: Re: Titan Experience Rules
PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2014 6:05 pm 
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Wonderful. I'll get to that when and as I can.

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 Post subject: Re: Titan Experience Rules
PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 4:50 pm 
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Sorry for not posting this a while ago, I guess I forgot. Tier 3 is done.
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Tier 3

Mutations

1. Additional Hardpoint (This Titan gains another location on which a weapon can be mounted. This will generally be a Carapace based location, but players are encouraged to be creative and to customize their model to match. The weapon to be mounted in the hardpoint must be purchased and does increase the cost of the Titan. It may be any weapon that is legal for that class of Titan. As examples, a Warhound might gain a hardpoint on it's top (like a Reaver) or between it's legs (like a Questor), while a Reaver might lose a 'shoulder pad' and mount a weapon there. This Titan's hit location template will have to be adjusted to match it's new configuration. This may be gained multiple times, to a limit equal to the normal number of weapon hardpoints for that class of Titan.)

2. Damage Reflection (roll on chart; any incoming attack of that type that hits the Titan (or a Shield) is subject to a Fixed 4+ save before the Hit Location chart is rolled for (or before the Shield is lost). If this Fixed save is made, the Titan takes no effect from the attack and the attack is reflected back at the attacker. Roll to hit as normal for the weapon in question and apply all effects as if the attacker were the original target. This Mutation may be gained more than once, each time roll for another type of attack that can be reflected.)
_ _ 1. Barrages: any weapon type that uses a template
_ _ 2. Laser: any weapon with Laser in the name & a few others, such as Volcano Cannon.
_ _ 3. Melta: includes all Fire & Flame based weapons, except Plasma
_ _ 4. Physical Psychic effects
_ _ 5. Plasma.
_ _ 6. Shells: all weapons that fire solid projectiles

3. Familiar (The Titan gains a single loyal follower. Select any one single model or stand with a maximum value of 50 points multiplied by the number of Honors this Titan has. For example, the earliest this Mutation can be gained is at Honor three, so at that point the Familiar has a maximum value of 150. Models may be selected from army lists other than Chaos Renegades, but such a model is considered to cost 50 points more than it does on it's native list. For example, one could select a Knight Paladin at Honor 3 and it would be considered to cost 150 for this mutation. If this Titan follows a specific Chaos Power, then it may select models from that Power's list at listed costs. At Honor six, the Titan may have a Greater Daemon as a Familiar, but may not select a Primarch. If the selected stand or model costs less than the allowed maximum, it gains one or more Mutations/Rewards. If the model is at least 50 points below maximum, it gains one randomly generated Tier 1 Mutation (or Reward). If the model is at least 100 points below, it gains one Tier 1 and one Tier 2, again randomly generated. Each time the Titan gains an Honor it may select to either replace it's current Familiar with one of a higher base value or add a Mutation/Reward of the next higher Tier. This Mutation may be gained multiple times, each time the Titan gains a new Familiar OR you may add 50 points to the maximum value of an existing Familiar. This Titan may not be fielded for a battle without it's Familiar(s), and the cost of the Titan's formation is increased by the maximum value of the Familiar. The Titan and Familiar must maintain a 10cm coherency, but each have their own Break Point (model) and VP.)

4. Impervious (roll on chart; all incoming attacks of that type have their Penetrating reduced by one. A weapon that does not have a Penetrating value is considered to have a value of 0, which is reduced to -1 by this ability. If such a weapon does damage the Titan, it rolls on the damage chart at -1. This may be gained any number of times.)
_ _ 1. Barrages: any weapon type that uses a template
_ _ 2. Laser: any weapon with Laser in the name & a few others, such as Volcano Cannon.
_ _ 3. Melta: includes all Fire & Flame based weapons, except Plasma
_ _ 4. Physical Psychic effects
_ _ 5. Plasma.
_ _ 6. Shells: all weapons that fire solid projectiles

5. Warp Refuge (This Titan's connection to reality has grown unstable, but in a way it can control. Once per battle, at the beginning of the Orders Phase, this Titan may choose to slip into the Warp for that turn, reappearing in the exact location it left at the end of that turn's End Phase. If the Titan's old location is now occupied by a Knight, Super Heavy, Praetorian, Titan, or other impenetrable effect (Vortex template, etc) this Titan instead reappears in the closest unoccupied location in which it can fit. If the location is occupied by any lighter model(s), those models are considered destroyed. No time has passed as far as the Titan is concerned. This ability may be gained more than once, each time the Titan gains an additional use per battle.)

6. Weapon Mastery (Warp energy has changed all of the Titan's weapons for the better. It's CAF is improved by 3, and roll twice on the following chart for each ranged weapon.
_ _ 1. Range is increased by 25cm.
_ _ 2. Number of Attacks is increased by one.
_ _ 3. To Hit is improved by 1.
_ _ 4. TSM is improved by 1.
_ _ 5. Gains Penetrating +1.
_ _ 6. Gains other special ability, roll on following sub-table:
_ _ _ 1. AA
_ _ _ 2. Damages Buildings
_ _ _ 3. Destroys Buildings (replaces Damages Buildings)
_ _ _ 4. Ignores Cover
_ _ _ 5. Quickdraw
_ _ _ 6. Turret
This does not affect Psychic/Magic attacks or weapons. This may be gained any number of times. Results of 1 through 5 on the main chart stack with themselves. Except where noted otherwise, the other special abilities do not. Do not re-roll if you roll an "other special ability" that the weapon already has.)


Khorne Rewards

1. Close Combat Mastery (This Titan gains +6 to its CAF and once per battle may negate any one special effect generated by a foe's special Close Combat weapon (Chaos Whip, Power Fist, etc). This Reward may be gained multiple times. Each time the Titan may negate one additional effect per battle.)

2. Daemon Engine * (The Titan becomes a Daemon Engine of Khorne. It may not have First Fire orders. If the Titan's side is winning at the start of a turn (IE has more Victory Points than any other force) then the Titan gains the following until the end of this turn: +1d6 CAF, +1 to all hit location save values, & +1 to all weapon to-hit rolls.))

3. Enhanced Speed (This Titan's Move increases by 10cm.)

4. Magic Immune (This Titan is immune to any weapon, power, or effect that is described as Psychic or Magic. This includes both Physical and Ethereal effects.)

5. Rapid Regeneration (This Titan's ability to recover from damage sustained during battle has been improved by Khorne's blessing. It now succeeds on all repair rolls on 2+ rather than 4+. It may attempt to repair locations described as 'crippled' or 'destroyed' and may even make repair rolls if it's reactor is damaged, but in this case it succeeds only on 6+. If the reactor is damaged, shields may be repaired, but are still non-functional until the reactor itself is repaired.)

6. Player Choice. May select any one Mutation or Khorne Reward of this tier.


Nurgle Rewards

1. Daemon Engine (The Titan becomes a Daemon Engine of Nurgle. It is never outnumbered in close combat.)

2. Enormous Bulk * (The Titan gains an inordinate amount of Daemonic flesh that slows and protects it from harm. Divide Move in half. May only turn once, either before or after all movement. All Carapace and Leg hit locations gain a Fixed 6+ Save in addition to their normal value.)

3. Headless * (This Titan's Head retracts into its body and is replaced on the hit location template by a Carapace location. [Save value 1+; if this Titan is a class of Titan that does not normally have Carapace locations, well, now it does.] The Titan loses the use of any weapon or CC head upgrades, along with any physical changes due to Mutations, Rewards, or Detriments to the Head itself. The crew exists within the Titan, so any changes to the Crew or MIU remain. The Titan can use any Psychic or Magic abilities it may have. It can detect its surroundings as well as it could before.)

4. Nurgling Repair Crews (This Titan is accompanied by innumerable Nurglings that may be used in one of two ways each turn. During the orders phase of each turn, choose to have the Nurglings help the Titan or Others.
_ Titan: The Titan succeeds on all repair rolls on 3+ rather than 4+. It may attempt to repair locations described as 'crippled' or 'destroyed' and may even make repair rolls if it's reactor is damaged, but in this case it succeeds only on 6+. If the reactor is damaged, shields may be repaired, but are still non-functional until the reactor itself is repaired.
_ Others: The Titan counts as having both the Medic and Mechanic abilities, but these only affect Nurgle models (Nurgle models include: Daemons, Daemon Engines, Death Guard, Plague Marine, Chaos Spawn, Defiler, Shambler, Magi, and any model with a Mark of Nurgle) within 10cm of the base of the Titan.)

5. Plague Bearer (Any model with a hit location template that engages this Titan (willingly or not) in Close Combat must make a save (at -1) for it's Head/Bridge location in the End Phase of that turn. Failing the save means that the affected model must roll on the following table and apply the listed penalty for the remainder of this battle:
_ 1-3: Green Pox. If the model has a Wound rating higher than one, it loses 1 Wound. This lost Wound may not be Regenerated. If the model does not have multiple Wounds, then all weapons that roll on it's damage charts do so at +1.
_ _ 4: Bone Ague. The model takes -4 CAF and all hit location values worsen by one point.
_ _ 5: Creeping Buboes. Move -10cm (minimum 0cm) and may only turn once, either before or after all movement.
_ _ 6: The Shakes. Takes -4 to CAF and must roll a D6 whenever it tries to move or attack with a special Close Combat weapon (Power Fist, Chaos Whip, etc). On a 4+ the model may act normally, but on a lower result it may not take the action.)

6. Player Choice. May select any one Mutation or Nurgle Reward of this tier.


Slaanesh Rewards

1. Corporal Warp Slip (Once per battle, during the Orders Phase, this Titan may become Incorporeal. This allows the Titan to ignore all terrain while moving, and it gains a Fixed 4+ save against all physical attacks that are neither Psychic or Magic. This condition is removed in the End Phase.)

2. Daemon Engine (The Titan becomes a Daemon Engine of Slaanesh. It gains Glamour of Slaanesh: foes take a -1 to hit the Titan & the Titan has a 4+ Psychic Save.)

3. Penetrating Senses * (This Titan's senses are enhanced greatly, but at a cost. The Titan's Head locations Save values are worsened by one point (IE a 2+ becomes a 3+). Each turn, in the Orders Phase, the Titan chooses one of the following bonuses to affect it for that turn.
_ Sensory Orb: The Titan may make indirect barrage attacks without needing a spotter.
_ Telepathy: The Titan gains the Sniper ability and thus may target HQ models.
_ X-Ray Vision: The Titan's weapons all count as if they have the Ignores Cover ability.)

4. Pliable Form (This Titan may bend and contort it's body in ways that are physically impossible for a normal Titan. It's Move is increased by 5cm and it may face up to 45 degrees away from the direction it moved in at the end of it's Move action. It may compress it's form to fit between otherwise impassible terrain situations. For example, two buildings with a 2cm gap between them. A normal Titan would have to go around, but this Titan may pass between them with no loss of Move. If it is partially under (or adjacent to) Cover, then all hit locations that are adjacent to the Cover are also unable to be targeted. [This effect stacks with the Chamelionic Circuit Reward.] It may make Close Combat attacks against targets within 5cm as if they are adjacent to the Titan.)

5. Repulsion Field (Once per battle, on its activation, this Titan may cause a wave of force to erupt from its position. This wave expands in all directions out to 10cm from the base of the Titan. Models closest to the Titan are affected first and take a hit with a TSM of -2. Models who survive the hit are moved to a position 10cm from the edge of the Titan's base, in a straight line drawn from the center of the Titan's base. If the model being moved hits another model, then both models take a hit at -2 TSM with any survivors being moved away until all are at least 10cm away from the titan. If the model being moved hits terrain it cannot pass through then the model is destroyed with no save. Super Heavy, Praetorian, Titan, and terrain are not moved. Models with Shields lose one Shield. Models that survive the hit and/or being moved may not act for the remainder of this turn.)

6. Player Choice. May select any one Mutation or Slaanesh Reward of this tier.


Tzeentch Rewards

1. Chronal Warp Slip * (Once per battle at the beginning of your Orders phase, place a marker on this Titan. During this turn the Titan receives no orders and may not move, fire weapons, or do anything at all. You may not use it as an activation that turn. It may still defend itself in CC. On your next turn, you may give this Titan two order counters and it may activate twice during that turn. The order counters may be different orders. Each time it is activated counts as one full normal activation.)

2. Daemon Engine (The Titan becomes a Daemon Engine of Tzeentch. The Titan's force gains +1 Chaos Reward Card at the start of each battle.)

3. Flaming Arm * (One arm weapon (determine randomly) morphs into a pliant trunk which has a toothed mouth at the end and emits magical fire. In any given turn's Combat Phase this weapon may act in one of two ways: as an improved Inferno Gun (Large teardrop template, to hit 3+, TSM -1, Ignore Cover, Physical Psychic), or as a Power Fist (also counts as a Psychic weapon). The weapon that used to occupy this slot is lost and its point cost is refunded.)

4. Improved Invisibility (Once per battle this Titan may choose to become Invisible. This choice is made during the Orders Phase. No model may Snap Fire at this Titan when it moves while Invisible, and the Titan may not be targeted by any attack until this effect ends, with three exceptions. Note that the Titan does not become visible if it attacks.
_ A. Models with Sniper roll as if this Titan were an HQ model, but they have a -1 penalty to the roll.
_ B. If this Titan was targeted with Markerlights before it became Invisible, then roll a D6 for each model marking the Titan: on a 6 that model is able to maintain contact with the Titan. If even one model is able to maintain contact, the Titan remains marked and may be attacked at a -2 to hit.
_ C. Vibration-based weaponry may be fired at the Titan as normal, as their targetting would be vibratory based as well.
This effect is removed in the End Phase. This Reward may be gained multiple times. Each time, the Titan gains one additional use per battle.)

5. Skimmer (This Titan becomes a Skimmer.)

6. Player Choice. May select any one Mutation or Tzeentch Reward of this tier.


Detrimental

1. Blind Rage (Every time this Titan is hit by an attack (whether or not it casues damage) and every time this Titan misses an attack roll, it must roll a 2+ on D6 or immediately gain Hatred that is directed toward the nearest formation, friend or foe. If more than one formation are tied for the closest, randomly determine between them. Note that the Titan may gain several Hatreds at the same time. Each gained Hatred lasts for the remainder of that turn and for the following turn.)

2. Fearfull (The Titan's natural self-preservation instincts become more powerful, sometimes overwhelmingly so. The Titan is uncomfortable in battle and suffers -1 to hit with all attacks and -2 to CAF.)

3. Hardpoint Atrophy (Randomly determine one hardpoint for this to apply to at the beginning of each battle. Include all weapons (CC and ranged), any tail, and Head IF that Head has any CC or ranged weaponry. Whenever that weapon is utilized, roll a D6. On a result of 3+ the weapon may be used as normal, otherwise is just does not function this turn. For ranged weapons, this roll is made after targets are selected but before rolls are made to determine hits. For CC weapons that just add to CAF, roll before each and every Close Combat. For other CC weapons, the roll is made after you win a CC and chose to use the weapon, but before the results of using that CC weapon are determined. If the CC weapon fails to activate, resolve the CC as if there was no CC weapon. If the alternate Plasma rules are in play, plasma must be spent to activate the weapon before the roll is made to see if the weapon works or not.)

4. Limited Actions (Being in combat overexcites the Titan's MIU, causing it to hesitate and lose actions. When this Titan is activted in a turn it may either move OR fire weapons. Thus it may only be given Charge or First Fire orders. If using the alternate Plasma rules the Titan may act as you wish, but may only spend half (round up) of the Plasma it has available that turn (what was rolled plus any carry over). Half of the remaining amount is lost to waste and inefficiency, and the remainder carries over to the next turn.)

5. Weaker (CAF is reduced by 6 and Move is reduced by 10cm. Minimum move 2.5cm.)

6. Weapon Incompetent (Warp energy has changed all of the Titan's weapons for the worse. It's CAF is reduced by 3, and roll on the following chart for each ranged weapon.
_ _ 1. Range is reduced by 50cm, minimum 10cm.
_ _ 2. Number of Attacks is reduced by two, minimum one.
_ _ 3. To Hit is worsened by 2, minimum of 6+ (a weapon that previously hit on 3+ now hits on 5+)
_ _ 4. TSM is reduced by 2, minimum of 0.
_ _ 5. Range is reduced by 25cm (minimum 20cm) and To Hit is worsened by 1 (minimum 6+).
_ _ 6. Number of Attacks is reduced by 1 (minimum 1) and TSM is reduced by 1 (minimum 0).
This does not affect Psychic/Magic attacks or weapons.

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 Post subject: Re: Titan Experience Rules
PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2015 11:51 am 
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I'm planning on playing a large campaign starting early on in 2016 and will be using these Titan Experience rules in conjunction with my campaign rules.

Speaking of which, does anyone have any objections to me adding these rules to my campaign documents? I'd like to name check contributors also, if ok?

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 Post subject: Re: Titan Experience Rules
PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:15 pm 
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As far as I'm concerned, go right ahead. Do note however that the Chaos lists are not quite finished, and that I have slightly revised a few entries for the Chaos Mutations/Rewards/Detriments sub-system. Hmm, perhaps I should poke at that again.

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 Post subject: Re: Titan Experience Rules
PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2015 2:48 pm 
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I'm happy to wait until you are ready for me to add this Magnus. I had wrongly assumed that this was completed.

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 Post subject: Re: Titan Experience Rules
PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2015 3:11 pm 
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Well, it is nearly done. Actually, it is close enough, so I'm putting in a few finishing touches and calling it good. I'll be posting it in a new thread momentarily just to avoid confusion.

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 Post subject: Re: Titan Experience Rules
PostPosted: Fri Dec 04, 2015 5:12 pm 
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Perfect!

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 Post subject: Re: Titan Experience Rules
PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2015 9:31 am 
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Have a few comments for the titan abilities. The system is very nice and one I hope we might be able to test in 2016 but not sure yet. The chaos powers are quite good compared to the other powers, but that might be offset by the random element and disadvantages they can get.

But the imperial tactical genius seem much better than anything else available for all the other races. Many of the traits gives a reroll for one weapon whereas tactical genius gives another round of shooting for all weapons of the titan or effectively double the movement of the titan (or both at 6). No other trait is anywhere as good and IMO it is very overpowered. That power alone makes it so that we either have to house rule the trait or I would simply not want to play with the system. I have no doubt that it will be the first trait each imperial titan receives which quickly gives an imperial force with twice the firepower of every other army (titan part of it).

Am I the only one that thinks Otis very much out of tune with the rest of the original traits?


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 Post subject: Re: Titan Experience Rules
PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2015 6:14 pm 
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It might possibly be overpowered. How would you suggest that it be re-worked? I can think of a couple of possible ways:

Limit the movement in the bonus Move activation to half normal, depending on orders.
Limit the movement to Advance speed, regardless of orders. Cannot move on FF.
Limit the movement to half Advance speed, regardless of orders.

Limit the bonus firing to one weapon period.
Limit the bonus firing to half of the weapons on the Titan (rounded up/down, minimum one).
Limit the bonus firing to one weapon per Honor achieved (maximum being the number of weapon on the Titan).
Limit the bonus firing to one weapon per 2 Honors achieved (maximum being the number of weapon on the Titan).

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 Post subject: Re: Titan Experience Rules
PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2015 11:15 pm 
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Seeing as a lot of the other traits give a reroll to shooting or plus 50% to one weapons dice pool I would take a very limited approach to not break the system.

Would go with either 1 weapon firing again or moving one 50% of normal movement, move forward (not double movement ). Would still be one of the best traits available, just not overpowered. A warlord firing twice a round would be way too dangerous or a CC titan that can charge 4x movement each turn. Orc, tyranid and eldar has nothing that compares to the original tactical genius.

Compare to the other abilities, the trait described above would still be one of the best but not break the system IMO.


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