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Titan Experience Rules

 Post subject: Re: Titan Experience Rules
PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 10:24 pm 
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Hi!

Quote:
I still feel that gaining more than one Reward at a time is too much. As it is, Chaos Titans are getting extra bonus power for no reason other than they serve Chaos with no downside. Perhaps each Reward should include a penalty of some kind to offset the bonus? If you will recall from the 1st edition Realm of Chaos books, many Mutations were bad and a few were downright crippling. While I'm not saying we should add crippling ones, there should be some form of cost associated with these.

It also means that all level 6 Chaos Titans will be identical by having all of the possible Rewards. Yes, I realize that the odds of any Titan reaching level 6 are slim to begin with, but once there you then have a 35/36 chance to gain all six Rewards.

I suppose to reduce the 'sameness' that is bothering me, I could come up with lists for each Reward level. What I'm thinking here is that when you receive a Reward of a given level (except probably 6th), you'd then roll on a sub-chart for that level to see exactly what power or effect you receive. It should be fairly easy for me to come up with 5 sub-lists, as I've done similar lists for another game in the past. I'll limit the lists to 6 entries each, so 1d6 can be used. If we had such lists, then gaining more than one Reward at a time wouldn't be so bad as there would be more variety. Would people like me to populate such lists, or am I the only one bothered by this?


Yes, I would. Populate what you deem would be a good set of attributes to assign (randomly) and I will include it.

This will remain pending your modification. Thanks!

Quote:
We should probably require the player of a Chaos Titan to declare it's Patron Power before or when it gains it's first XP, though such will probably be obvious from army construction. Additionally, there should be an option for 'Chaos Undivided', even if they just gain a free CC or Weapon Head (player's choice).


Once you get the above running we'll modify the introduction to reflect this.

Quote:
Minor quibbles, second sentence still seems slightly confusing. Perhaps change to "Any unit hit and failing its armor save gets transformed into a Pink Horror." This change would eliminate the need for the fourth sentence. For that matter, it might be best to list specifically which types it does not apply to, thus eliminating all confusion: "This ability does not affect Knight, Super Heavy, Praetorian, or Titan units."


Done.

Quote:
The wording here is a little strange. Gaining two cards is more than a Daemon Prince gets, which seems a bit overpowered. I have an idea to make it work though. Perhaps change to:
5. Essence of Chaos. This Titan becomes a Daemon Engine (see Chaos PDF page 7) and selects one of the two following options.
A: This Titan becomes a Daemon Prince. See Chaos PDF page 7 for effects.
B: Customize this Titan with additional abilities of your own design. These should be unique effects comparable to becoming a Daemon Prince, or to those of the Banelord, Bubonis, or Skylok Titans. These abilities must be oriented around your chosen Power, and may change the properties of your weapons. These unique abilities must be agreed to by all players in the campaign (so don't go too overboard) or by the DM/GM if there is one. These unique abilities cannot include being either a Daemon Prince (see previous option) or a Greater Daemon (see next Reward).


Changed to your suggestion.

Quote:
Problem with this one (and 5) is that a Titan is too mechanical for Chaos Cards to be used on it, and breaking that seems overpowered to me. (I play Chaos at times, and I still think it's OP.) Still, even without that, it's gaining a lot. Also, nobody in Epic has a "patron demon", they have a "patron Power" (as an example: nobody has a Bloodthirster for their patron, they obey Khorne). I'd replace the second and third sentence above with: "The Titan becomes a Greater Daemon Engine with all of the abilities that entails. See Chaos PDF page 7 for details on Greater Daemons and Daemon Engines. This ability replaces being a Daemon Prince if the Titan had that ability."


Wording changed to your suggestion.

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 Post subject: Re: Titan Experience Rules
PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 10:50 pm 
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Hi!

Eldar and Ork changes submitted.

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 Post subject: Re: Titan Experience Rules
PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 10:52 pm 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
primarch wrote:
2. Hyper-reflexive muscles. The powerful muscles around this bio-weapons give it extra punch! The weapon system gains 25cm range and -1 to save modifier and +1 to damage. can take one per weapon system.

I think this would be clearer by saying: "... +25cm to its range, improves its TSM by one, and gains Penetrating +1. This can be taken once per weapon."

primarch wrote:
3. Alloy laced chitin. The broods chitin has been laced with metal alloys for extra protection. Add +1 to OVERALL save (maximum 1+). It makes then invulnerable to weapons with no save modifier.

It would be clearer to say: "The Bio-Titan's chitin..." as a brood can include three models.

primarch wrote:
4. Primitive neural net. The broods nervous system has been simplified to a degree where it does not register pain anymore making it incredibly resistant to damage. Critical location number is increased by +1 on all locations (maximum 6+).

same reason as #3

primarch wrote:
5. Superlative regeneration. The broods formidable regenerative capabilities are enhanced even further. Regen roll is 3+.

Ibid.


Hi!

All added.

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 Post subject: Re: Titan Experience Rules
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2013 7:43 am 
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I would suggest to put in a note (probably near the beginning of the Chaos subsection of the XP system) strongly advising against the use of the Mutation chart in the Chaos PDF if experience rules are in play. Partly as that is covered here.

As an update, I am making progress on listings for each tier of rewards/mutations. While I was going to limit it to just six per tier, I'm having trouble narrowing it down that much, so I'm making six lists for each tier. Tier = level. Each list will be D6 friendly.

The first list is the basic list, usable by all and for those Titans with no patron Power, unlikely as that seems to me. These are called Mutations.

The next four are for each of the four primary Powers (Khorne, Nurgle, Slaanesh, & Tzeentch). My thought is that a Titan that clearly follows one of these Powers may choose to roll on the table for their Power instead of rolling on the base list, but this choice must be made before any rolling happens. These are called Rewards.

The last list is for an optional rule. The option is for those players (or their opponents) who want to put more balance into the Mutation/Reward system. What it means is that nearly every time a Mutation or Reward is generated you must also roll for a Detriment (not sure about that name, may change it). A few of the Mutations / Rewards count as their own Detriment, and are marked with an *. If you receive one of these, you do not roll for a Detriment.

I'll post the lists soon, I hope. I may post one tier/level at a time.

Feel free to comment on any of this.

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 Post subject: Re: Titan Experience Rules
PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 5:50 am 
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With these lists being what they are, we should retain the rule that you have where the Titan receives the Mutation/Reward for the number of Honors it has, and one for each lower level/tier. I've written the entries with that in mind. I'm not entirely certain these are all balanced. Comments are welcome.
____

All results from these tables are random, you never select a Mutation or Reward unless directed to by a specific Reward. Unless otherwise noted, no Mutation or Reward may be gained more than once. If you roll a duplicate Mutation that cannot be gained more than once then you gain nothing. If you roll a duplicate Reward that cannot be gained more than once, re-roll once on the Mutation chart for that tier. If that second roll is also one that you have and cannot be gained more than once, you gain nothing. The Chaos Powers can be fickle. If you roll a Detriment that you already have that cannot be gained more than once, keep re-rolling until you get one that can be gained more than once.

Tier 1 charts

Mutations

1. Chaos Tail (Gains a normal Chaos Tail. If this Titan already had a Chaos Tail, the points spent to purchase it are refunded.)

2. Claw (One arm weapon gains qualities of a Power Fist. In any turn's Combat Phase, either the Power Fist or the other weapon may be used, but not both in the same turn. This may be gained a number of times equal to the number of arm hardpoints that Titan has.)

3. Fast (This Titan's base Move increases by 5cm. This may be gained any number of times.)

4. Mandibles * (Head is replaced with a CC Head. If this Titan already had a Close Combat, Weapon Head, or other form of enhanced Head, the points spent to purchase it are refunded and the previous benefit is replaced.)

5. Summoning (Once per battle, during it's activation in any Phase, this Titan may summon one formation of lesser Daemons to it's location. This formation must have been paid for and held in reserve. The formation may be placed anywhere within 10cm of the titan. This formation of Daemons shares the Titan's orders for this turn and may be given orders as normal next turn. This may be gained any number of times, each time gaining an additional use per battle, but still only once per activation.)

6. Tougher (This Titan improves the armor save values of two different hit locations by one point each. This may be gained any number of times, each time affecting different hit locations.)


Khorne Rewards

1. Irrational Hatred * (Roll on chart below when this is gained. This Titan receives orders differently. If the subject of this Titan's Hatred in within Charge range, it is put on Charge orders and must move toward and enter Close combat with the nearest formation of the subject. If the subject is out of Charge range, the Titan receives Advance orders, must move at least half it's move toward such a unit, and must attack such units with at least half of the Titan's ranged shots including its best weapon. If no units of subject are within LOS, may be given orders normally. Gains +1 to hit and +2 to CAF vs subject of Hatred, but all units other than the subject of the Hatred gain +1 to hit the Titan. If Plasma Rules are in play, the Titan must enter Close Combat if possible and must shoot at least half of it's shots at the subject if it cannot enter Close Combat.)

2. Manic Fighter (During orders Phase you may select an enemy formation in LOS. Gain bonuses, penalties, and restrictions as per Hatred above for that turn. May select a different formation each turn or may choose to not select a formation that turn.)

3. Power Tail (gains a Tail with a Power Fist)

4. Psychic Resistance (gains a Pscyhic Save of 5+. This is in addition to any existing save.)

5. Whip Attack (One arm weapon gains qualities of a Chaos Whip. In any turn's Combat Phase, either the Chaos Whip or the other weapon may be used, but not both in the same turn.)

6. Player Choice. May select any one Khorne Reward or Mutation of this tier.


Nurgle Rewards

1. Cloud of Flies (Models with no armor save do not count toward outnumbering this Titan)

2. Powerful Stench (All foes with no armor save within 10cm are at -1 to hit and -2 CAF)

3. Pustulent Form * (This Titan improves its armor save values. It gains four points, no more than two can be applied to the same location. It must also worsen the armor saves of two other locations by one point each.)

4. Restore Damage (Once per battle, during an end phase, may instantly repair any one damaged or destroyed (but not blown off) carapace, leg, or weapon location.)

5. Unnatural Flatulence (Once per turn, at a moment of the Titan's choosing, it may place a barrage template adjacent to itself. Any unit touched by this template, friend or foe, must make an Armor Save or loose their next activation due to the unholy stench.)

6. Player Choice. May select any one Nurgle Reward or Mutation of this tier.


Slaanesh Rewards

1. Chamelionic Circuit (Hit locations adjacent to cover also have cover so they may not be targeted. Any shot that scatteres onto such a location takes the hit.)

2. Crazed Scream of Pleasure and Pain (Once per battle, during it's activation in the Combat Phase, it may make a Crazed Scream. All foes within 25cm must make a Psychic Save or be at -1 to hit and -2 CAF for the remainder of that turn.)

3. Elongated Limb (Once per turn on it's activation in the Combat Phase, may use a Close Combat weapon against a target within 10cm that is not adjacent. Aside from the distance, run the CC normally as if this Titan and it's target are the only ones involved in the CC. If this Titan has no CC weapon(s), it gains no benefit.)

4. Hypnotic Gaze * (LOS: May target a model with a head location (or equivalent). If target fails a Psychic Save, it is transfixed and may not move or fire weapons. This gaze may be maintained in subsequent turns if this Titan also does not move or fire any other weapons. If LOS is lost, the effect is lost.)

5. Illusions (In the first turn of a battle, after the movement phase and before the combat phase, this Titan may switch places with any other Titan of the same class (Warlord - Warlord, Reaver - Reaver, etc) that has not fired any weapons.

6. Player Choice. May select any one Slaanesh Reward or Mutation of this tier.


Tzeentch Rewards

1. Acid Spittle (Gains an additional attack that originates from the head and has a 90 degree arc to the front. If the head is damaged or destroyed, this attack may not be used. One shot per turn to 25cm, hits on a 4+, a TSM of -2, with Penetrating +1.)

2. Energy Shield (once per battle, may negate a hit to a location. The decision to do so may be made after the hit location save is failed, but must be before the location's damage chart is rolled on.)

3. Evil Eye (100cm 1 shot/turn May target a model with a head location. If target fails a Psychic Save, it takes -1 to hit and -2 CAF for the remainder of the battle.

4. Psychic Sensors (gains Sniper)

5. Small Wings (once per battle gains Skimmer for one turn)

6. Player Choice. May select any one Tzeentch Reward or Mutation of this tier.


Detrimental

1. Flawed Armor (One hit location armor save is worsened by 1 point. This may be gained any number of times.)

2. Irrational Fear (roll on chart: cannot attack that subject, half CAF vs subject. This may be gained any number of times.)

3. Poor Plasma System (Every turn after the first, roll 1d6. Add one to the roll for every previous time this has been rolled. If the result is 6 or higher, the Titan is at -1 to hit and -2 CAF for the remainder of the battle. If using the alternate Plasma Rules, then instead it generates one fewer point per turn per turn after the first, minimum one. Example, turn two it would generate -1, turn three would be -2, etc.)

4. Sensitivity (roll on chart; all incoming attacks of that type gain +1 TSM. This includes affecting Shields. This may be gained any number of times.)
_ _ 1. Barrages: any weapon type that uses a template
_ _ 2. Laser: any weapon with Laser in the name & a few others, such as Volcano Cannon.
_ _ 3. Melta: includes all Fire & Flame based weapons, except Plasma
_ _ 4. Physical Psychic effects
_ _ 5. Plasma.
_ _ 6. Shells: all weapons that fire solid projectiles

5. Slow (reduce base Move by 5 cm. This may be gained any number of times.)

6. Vividly Colored Carapace (any hit location under cover may be targeted on 5+)

Fear/Hatred chart (5d6):
05: Minotaur
06: Troll
07: Orgyn
08: Ratling
09: Beastmen
10: Kroot
11: Daemon
12: Necron
13: Squat
14: Tau
15: Eldar
16: Space Marine
17: Human
18: Ork (includes Gretchin)
19: Tyranid
20: Infantry
21: Cavalry
22: Walker & Light Artillery
23: Vehicle & Heavy Artillery
24: Skimmer
25: Flyer
26: Knight
27: Floater
28: Super Heavy
29: Praetorian
30: Titan

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Last edited by MagnusIlluminus on Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Titan Experience Rules
PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2013 4:26 pm 
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Hi!

I'll let others comment, but I don't find anything to object to on these powers. They are flavorful and random and add a lot of character to the system. :)

Magnus, to make it easier to edit, I'll formulate a file and send to you to edit, then we can post its final form here.

Is that okay with you?

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 Post subject: Re: Titan Experience Rules
PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 1:56 am 
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Ah, are you are saying that you'd rather I not post one tier/level at a time?

I am writing these up in a text document. I can just post that once I'm done as well. If you have a preferred file type or layout, feel free to post or explain. If you are just meaning to work it into what you posted before, I can do that.

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 Post subject: Re: Titan Experience Rules
PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2013 2:52 am 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
Ah, are you are saying that you'd rather I not post one tier/level at a time?

I am writing these up in a text document. I can just post that once I'm done as well. If you have a preferred file type or layout, feel free to post or explain. If you are just meaning to work it into what you posted before, I can do that.


Hi!

What I meant is once you are done posting, I would compile the whole thing into a document and that way you or anyone else can edit it easily.

Of course if you feel you can do it (take the summary, work your stuff into it and then post a completed version here), that would be great! I just didn't want to shove any extra work your way. :)

I would be greatly appreciative if you could just create the full document summary including your stuff (and all the editing), since that would free me up to do the spreadsheets for the army builder. Once you were done just copy/paste it to this thread I will "sticky" it.

Thanks!

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 Post subject: Re: Titan Experience Rules
PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 5:56 am 
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Once I get all the tiers worked up it shouldn't be to difficult, or any significantly more work, for me to integrate it directly into the Chaos section. It's likely going to be a while before I get through the other four tiers though, as work is getting into it's busy season. So for the time being anyway, go work on those army builder files.

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 Post subject: Re: Titan Experience Rules
PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 2:47 pm 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
Once I get all the tiers worked up it shouldn't be to difficult, or any significantly more work, for me to integrate it directly into the Chaos section. It's likely going to be a while before I get through the other four tiers though, as work is getting into it's busy season. So for the time being anyway, go work on those army builder files.


Hi!

Thanks!

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 Post subject: Re: Titan Experience Rules
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:14 pm 
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Just had a random thought. What do people think about allowing Praetorians to use this system as well? They are big and shooty as well, and have crews that could survive the loss of the vehicle.


On a different thought, we should probably forbid the Banelord, Bubonis, and Skylok Titans from using the XP system, or at the very least from gaining further Chaos Rewards, as to me they seem like they are already experienced Titans.

Yes, I'm still making progress on the Chaos Mutations, Rewards, & Detriments. It's just slow going.

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 Post subject: Re: Titan Experience Rules
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:32 pm 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
Just had a random thought. What do people think about allowing Praetorians to use this system as well? They are big and shooty as well, and have crews that could survive the loss of the vehicle.


On a different thought, we should probably forbid the Banelord, Bubonis, and Skylok Titans from using the XP system, or at the very least from gaining further Chaos Rewards, as to me they seem like they are already experienced Titans.

Yes, I'm still making progress on the Chaos Mutations, Rewards, & Detriments. It's just slow going.


Hi!

I have been thinking of that for some time as well Magnus. Based on Bissler's use of the system so far, it seems to work well.

One thing to note that its easy to generate plasma for use if you don't use plasma weapons. Which is okay, since we wanted "reliability" on that level.

Besides how much plasma they'd generate we would need to come up with how much plasma things cost.

Much can be ported over from the system as is, but some praetorians have weapons that will need a cost assigned to them.

If you got some ideas post them and I will come up with some as well. :)

Regarding chaos titans, such special titans should be considered already favored by chaos and thus not eligible for any more rewards. That's easy enough to add to their descriptions.

No worries on the reward system. Take your time, I t will be worth the wait. :)

Thanks!

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Titan Experience Rules
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:31 pm 
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I wasn't thinking so much about the Plasma system as the Experience system, but they could potentially use both.

Actually, the Plasma system would have somewhat less effect on Praetorians as they are already considered Command units for orders whereas Titans normally are not. I don't have any specific ideas for weapon usage costs at this time, but they should either be high, as Praetorians generally have only one primary weapon system, or the Plasma generated per turn should be lower. Probably costs similar to Plasma weapons for the primary armament.

---
I've been adding your Head abilities in as specific Rewards per power in tier two. I've reworded a little here and there and added a bit of detail where I thought it needed. How do you feel about these:

Slaanesh I felt was a tad overpowered for the tier, so I split it into two Rewards:
___Daemonette Head (The Titan's Head is enhanced with the power of Slaanesh. This is an ethereal psychic power that may be activated during the Combat Phase and any effects last until that turn's End Phase. All non-Slaanesh units (Slaanesh units include: Slaanesh Daemons, Daemon Engines, Emperor's Children, Noise Marine, Beast Rider, Magi, Defiler, Hell Knight/Scourge/Strider, Questor, Subjugator, any unit with a Mark of Slaanesh, and any Titan with a Slaanesh Reward) within 25cm (including allies) lose one close combat die (rolls 1d6 instead of 2d6) unless a Psychic Save is made. This ability is lost for that battle if that Head is destroyed.)
___Lashing Tongue (The Titan's Head is augmented with an overly long and powerful tongue. When the Titan wins a close combat, it may choose to hit with the tongue instead, which acts in all ways as a Power Fist.)

Tzeentch needed a few more details. How about:
Ray of Change (The Head location gains a Physcial Psychic Power. This is still usable if the Head is damaged but not destroyed. The Ray may target any Infantry, Cavalry, Walker, Vehicle, Light or Heavy Artillery (Knight, Super Heavy, Praetorian, and Titan units cannot be affected) within 50cm with 4 attacks at a TSM of -2. As with all weapons with multiple attacks, different targets may be selected, but for the Ray all units targeted in the same activation must be within 10cm of at least one other target. Any target that fails it's save is transformed into a Pink Horror. If the Pink Horror(s) survive to the next turn, they may be given orders and controlled normally by the player who controls this Titan. All Pink Horrors created in the same activation are considered to be in a Formation, and must reestablish coherency as soon as they are able to. Pink Horrors created in this manner give no VP when destroyed or broken.)

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 Post subject: Re: Titan Experience Rules
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 11:24 pm 
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MagnusIlluminus wrote:
I wasn't thinking so much about the Plasma system as the Experience system, but they could potentially use both.

Actually, the Plasma system would have somewhat less effect on Praetorians as they are already considered Command units for orders whereas Titans normally are not. I don't have any specific ideas for weapon usage costs at this time, but they should either be high, as Praetorians generally have only one primary weapon system, or the Plasma generated per turn should be lower. Probably costs similar to Plasma weapons for the primary armament.

---
I've been adding your Head abilities in as specific Rewards per power in tier two. I've reworded a little here and there and added a bit of detail where I thought it needed. How do you feel about these:

Slaanesh I felt was a tad overpowered for the tier, so I split it into two Rewards:
___Daemonette Head (The Titan's Head is enhanced with the power of Slaanesh. This is an ethereal psychic power that may be activated during the Combat Phase and any effects last until that turn's End Phase. All non-Slaanesh units (Slaanesh units include: Slaanesh Daemons, Daemon Engines, Emperor's Children, Noise Marine, Beast Rider, Magi, Defiler, Hell Knight/Scourge/Strider, Questor, Subjugator, any unit with a Mark of Slaanesh, and any Titan with a Slaanesh Reward) within 25cm (including allies) lose one close combat die (rolls 1d6 instead of 2d6) unless a Psychic Save is made. This ability is lost for that battle if that Head is destroyed.)
___Lashing Tongue (The Titan's Head is augmented with an overly long and powerful tongue. When the Titan wins a close combat, it may choose to hit with the tongue instead, which acts in all ways as a Power Fist.)

Tzeentch needed a few more details. How about:
Ray of Change (The Head location gains a Physcial Psychic Power. This is still usable if the Head is damaged but not destroyed. The Ray may target any Infantry, Cavalry, Walker, Vehicle, Light or Heavy Artillery (Knight, Super Heavy, Praetorian, and Titan units cannot be affected) within 50cm with 4 attacks at a TSM of -2. As with all weapons with multiple attacks, different targets may be selected, but for the Ray all units targeted in the same activation must be within 10cm of at least one other target. Any target that fails it's save is transformed into a Pink Horror. If the Pink Horror(s) survive to the next turn, they may be given orders and controlled normally by the player who controls this Titan. All Pink Horrors created in the same activation are considered to be in a Formation, and must reestablish coherency as soon as they are able to. Pink Horrors created in this manner give no VP when destroyed or broken.)


Hi!

You would think I would remember what thread I'm posting too, I got plasma on the brain.... :D

Yes, I think we could apply both. I need to put my thinking cap on too see what honors would be worthwhile for praetorians.

Would we divide them into crew and upgrades as well? Or just upgrades (the crew is kind of superfluous with praetorians. Thoughts?

The chaos stuff looks. We'll update it all once your chaos rewards system is done.

Thanks for all the input and help, its much appreciated! :)

Primarch

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 Post subject: Re: Titan Experience Rules
PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2013 12:47 am 
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primarch wrote:
Would we divide them into crew and upgrades as well? Or just upgrades (the crew is kind of superfluous with praetorians. Thoughts?

The chaos stuff looks.


As much as Crew aren't mentioned as much with Praetorians as with Titans, Praetorians also haven't been around as long either. (To the best of my knowledge, they didn't exist as such until NetEpic.) I'd say Crew could be just as important for either type of war machine. For the most part, a Praetorian should be able to use most any Crew Skill or machine Upgrade available to Titans. A few may need minor editing, but should be fine. I say this not having looked through them with an eye out specifically for this however, so I may be wrong.

it looks...
Good?
Terrible?
Random?
I think you forgot a word or two there... ;D

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